Yet Another Great E-Logs Debate!

[Racer X 69]

I tell you what. Get stuck at a repair shop while using e-logs, and have your 14 run out. Then the shop is done with the repairs, and wants you to leave because there is no room for you to hang out until the 10 hour break is up.

So you take a violation to run to the nearest truck stop, right?

Or you get to the shipper or consignee, they screw around and your hours are up. You can't park here driver, this ain't a truck stop.

So you have to take a violation to run to the nearest truck stop, rest area or parking lot where you can get away with parking for 10 hours, right?

No, thank you.

 

[GroceryHauler]

I tell you what. Get stuck at a repair shop while using e-logs, and have your 14 run out. Then the shop is done with the repairs, and wants you to leave because there is no room for you to hang out until the 10 hour break is up.

So you take a violation to run to the nearest truck stop, right?

Or you get to the shipper or consignee, they screw around and your hours are up. You can't park here driver, this ain't a truck stop.

So you have to take a violation to run to the nearest truck stop, rest area or parking lot where you can get away with parking for 10 hours, right?

No, thank you.

We deliver to grocery warehouses, so you can rest assured that this comes up more than a few times.

Dot gives us a 15 minute "grace period" on hour hours where we can run 15 minutes over as many times as we feel like without repercussions.

We also get (I think) an "allotment" of four critical violations (more than 15 minutes over our HOS) without repercussions from the company. I say "I think" because we might actually get more. I don't know because I still haven't run into a situation where I had to use it.

If one of the aforementioned situations arises, as long as we note in the remarks why we were rolling without hours, Dot won't punish us.

Dot also uses "go getters" for those of us unlucky enough to run out of hours trying to get home. If I run out of hours within 100 miles of home, Dot will send a driver out in a company car. That driver will log in and drive my truck back while I drive the car back. That way I'm not sitting 90 minutes from home cursing e-logs for keeping me from getting there.

Just about every reason you can come up with was used by me when I was fighting e-logs. I used my logbook like a check book. As long as I had log sheets, I had hours to drive. Like I said above, I wouldn't go back to paper logs for anything now.

 

[Mike]

Our company sends out drivers as well. I actually had our night dispatcher/driver meet me at a location that I was able to get to, that left me 80 miles from home. He took the trailer from that point, and I bobtailed home under personal conveyance. That's the only time I have had to be rescued.

We also get something like 3 violations per month before anything will be said to us. I've busted my 70 by a couple hours on a few occasions, busted my 11 and 14 a few times as well, nothing ever said. Still doesn't protect you from D.O.T., but never had to be concerned about it.

E-Logs is just no big deal.

 

[Tim]

We deliver to grocery warehouses, so you can rest assured that this comes up more than a few times.

Dot gives us a 15 minute "grace period" on hour hours where we can run 15 minutes over as many times as we feel like without repercussions.

We also get (I think) an "allotment" of four critical violations (more than 15 minutes over our HOS) without repercussions from the company. I say "I think" because we might actually get more. I don't know because I still haven't run into a situation where I had to use it.

If one of the aforementioned situations arises, as long as we note in the remarks why we were rolling without hours, Dot won't punish us.

Dot also uses "go getters" for those of us unlucky enough to run out of hours trying to get home. If I run out of hours within 100 miles of home, Dot will send a driver out in a company car. That driver will log in and drive my truck back while I drive the car back. That way I'm not sitting 90 minutes from home cursing e-logs for keeping me from getting there.

Just about every reason you can come up with was used by me when I was fighting e-logs. I used my logbook like a check book. As long as I had log sheets, I had hours to drive. Like I said above, I wouldn't go back to paper logs for anything now.

Our company sends out drivers as well. I actually had our night dispatcher/driver meet me at a location that I was able to get to, that left me 80 miles from home. He took the trailer from that point, and I bobtailed home under personal conveyance. That's the only time I have had to be rescued.

We also get something like 3 violations per month before anything will be said to us. I've busted my 70 by a couple hours on a few occasions, busted my 11 and 14 a few times as well, nothing ever said. Still doesn't protect you from D.O.T., but never had to be concerned about it.

E-Logs is just no big deal.

Thats all well and good that you get to "fudge" 15 mins here, 15 mins there and the company looks the other way......oh wait, they look the other way with paper logs to dont they?
Problem is if something happens while your over on hours the DOT aint gonna look the other way.
And by a company giving permission to run over hours every now and then just shows E-Logs anit all there cracked up to be.

I'm with Racer I'll just keep my laptop logs.

 

[Mike]

D.O.T. isn't going to look the other way with paper logs either.

for my company, it's not so much that they are giving us permission to go over hours, it's just that they don't say anything to us until we have 3 violations. Long term, this is likely what it will be coming to. The company has enough common sense to know that things are going to happen once in a while out on the road, and they aren't going to waste there time dealing with each and every mistake. At least this way, we aren't falsifying logs.

It is simply the system of the future, like it or not. Not everyone here will have to deal with it, but at some point, every driver on the road will have to deal with it. And I know, some of you bow up your chests when you hear this and proclaim that you will quit driving if this ever happens. That is fine and good, but in reality, the industry doesn't care. Those that walk away will be replaced and the trucking industry will continue, just as it did when the CDL came along, and just as it did when the hours of service changed in 2005.

I would love to be able to drive when and where I pleased, but that simply isn't reality.

 

[Tim]

D.O.T. isn't going to look the other way with paper logs either.

for my company, it's not so much that they are giving us permission to go over hours, it's just that they don't say anything to us until we have 3 violations. Long term, this is likely what it will be coming to. The company has enough common sense to know that things are going to happen once in a while out on the road, and they aren't going to waste there time dealing with each and every mistake. At least this way, we aren't falsifying logs.

It is simply the system of the future, like it or not. Not everyone here will have to deal with it, but at some point, every driver on the road will have to deal with it. And I know, some of you bow up your chests when you hear this and proclaim that you will quit driving if this ever happens. That is fine and good, but in reality, the industry doesn't care. Those that walk away will be replaced and the trucking industry will continue, just as it did when the CDL came along, and just as it did when the hours of service changed in 2005.

I would love to be able to drive when and where I pleased, but that simply isn't reality.

Your missing my point.
The DOT wants every one to run within the HOS 100% of the time, no if's, and, buts or do over's so E-logs is there answer to making drivers 100% legal. You know and I know in trucking you not going to be able to run 100% legal 365 days a year. Your company is giving you a 3 mistake pass per month with e-logs so what was the point in going to e-logs to begin with? Did they not do the same before they went with e-logs?
Its a colossal waste of money buy the things only to have the same polices in place for a mistake on a E-log. Plus with the now ever changing HOS rules its easier for a carrier to teach someone how to push a button then to add and subtract.

And I'm not planing on quitting any time soon even if it comes down to everyone is mandated to use them, but I'm not just gonna roll over and ring by hands together and tell every one to just get use to them cause were all gonna get them some day.

 

[Mike]

I think I got your point.

The way I see it, and this is just me blindly looking into the future, there is going to be an allowance for occasional minor violations once elogs are 100% in place. Why? because you, me, and anybody else with any common sense knows that things are going to happen "once in a while" that will cause a truck to have to be moved beyond the HOS in the name of safety.

When I make a violation with my E-Logs, it is minor these days. Sure, I tested the waters to see what I could get away with, and right now I can get away with quite a bit, but that is changing as the system improves. (and I get to witness the improvements all the time).

Upon 100% E-Log usage, I expect that there will be a basic overview of the logs upon roadside dot inspections. Basically looking for 99.9% compliance, which is pretty easy to achieve. I'm not one that thinks the Government is looking for ways to generate income by threatening my career.

Paper logs, though, are a joke. They have to be replaced. Why? Hardly anybody takes them seriously. I, like most others, are going to get away with whatever I can get away with. It's human nature I think. I can do this, and most of us can do this, without creating safety hazards. Too many out here though cannot do that though and put us all in danger.

Rules on drivers have been tightened and tightened due to a lack of ability to enforce.

Call me crazy (and I know you will ), but I think once E-Logs are fully in place, you will see a reversing trend on driver regulations. It's going to take full compliance to show just how insane these regulations are.

 

[Rigjockey]

I know E-logs are going to be apart of trucking at some point. I can face that. It will not make me quit driving, Just work differently. Every driver knows things out here change by the second. Maybe not the regs, We all know big Government moves at glacial speeds but we as drivers are fluid..I think they, The powers that be need to re-tool some of the laws to accomodate drivers and help them stay legal. i know they can't mandate a shipper to allow you to park there, It is privatly owned property and the owners rights must be respected. However if they can not open more rest areas or expand currently existing ones and allow parking on streets that are in industrial areas.Here is why, What is the harm in parking a big rig in an area that is not well traveled during the evening and nights, away from peoples homes. What would be the harm if a shipper booted you off their private property and a driver moved off the lot and went less than a mile to get the rest mandated by law?

 

[Mike]

From my experience, parking has been no more of an issue before or after going on E-Logs. If anything, it has been easier, because I take a little more time to plan my trips.

Only thing I had to do was make some minor changes to my driving habits.

• I had to quit hanging around the house til the last minute. In other words, I had to leave in time actually do the run legally.
• When delayed at a shipper or along my route, I had to learn that appointments might have to be changed. My company and I had to learn that customers now had to be contacted ahead of time regarding parking availability. If I am delayed, and that delay is going to prevent me from having a full 10 hour break before delivering, I need to know if they are going to let me remain on their property until I have had a full 10 hour break. If they won't they need to plan on taking delivery at a later time.
• I had to start using the split sleeper rule

Our shipper and receivers have had to learn to change their ways. For instance, if your company's contracts are revised to require detention pay after two hours, you will find that delays become much less frequent. We lost a few customers, likely due to this, but we made up for it with better customers. This is a net win for the driver.

The biggest thing to understand as you go to E-Logs is Communication.

 

[j911brick]

I tell you what. Get stuck at a repair shop while using e-logs, and have your 14 run out. Then the shop is done with the repairs, and wants you to leave because there is no room for you to hang out until the 10 hour break is up.

So you take a violation to run to the nearest truck stop, right?

Or you get to the shipper or consignee, they screw around and your hours are up. You can't park here driver, this ain't a truck stop.

So you have to take a violation to run to the nearest truck stop, rest area or parking lot where you can get away with parking for 10 hours, right?

No, thank you.

I thought you were in favor of elogs?

I'm surprised nobody has address the issue of running out of hours at the dock and then being kicked off the property.

 

[Mike]

I'm surprised nobody has address the issue of running out of hours at the dock and then being kicked off the property.

I think I have addressed that a couple times in this thread, and countless times in other E-Log threads.

 

[notarps4me]

I did not think I would like Elogs either, but I have not lost any money running with the same company and it is nice actually taking a real 10 now.

 

[DubbleD]

Safe Haven.

You're in a traffic jam in say.. Texas cuz a Spirit decided to tempt fate and lost.

Your clock runs out. You can't park it in the lane and pull the curtains.

Safe Haven says... the DRIVER has the liberty of running over HOS to locate suitable SAFE Haven.


It's been said before.. I'll repeat, E-logs require you to plan your trip more carefully. New technology (GPS) and other electronic means are available to assist with planning your run.

The stodgy old fart aint' gonna spend money on some "new fangled" thing-a-ma-bob. They know every road and back road in the country and don't have time or desire to "LEARN" something new that would actually help them when confronted with a "NEW" delivery drop, traffic impediments, road closures etc.

These are the same people that don't want to have anything at all to do with the newer truactors... WHY??

1. Can't work on it themselves and can't afford a mechanic??

2. Can't afford new technology??

 

[Racer X 69]

I thought you were in favor of elogs?

I don't know whatever gave you that idea.

When I returned to work last March after the hip surgery I could have moved into a brand new truck. I chose a 2007 rig to keep from having to submit to a nanny box.

I am not ready for that kind of scrutiny.

I don't know if I will ever be.

 

[Racer X 69]

These are the same people that don't want to have anything at all to do with the newer truactors... WHY??

1. Can't work on it themselves and can't afford a mechanic??

2. Can't afford new technology??

Didn't you post recently that you are buying a couple trucks? Wait until some of that new fangled global warming **** goes legs up and the thing is gonna cost $5,000 to get back on the road.

And you can't do it yourself even if you used to hold ASE Truck Master certification, because the **** has to be "set up" using a $2,000 laptop and a $3,000 dongle to connect it to the truck ECM, and even if you did have that stuff you still couldn't do it because the software is not available to the general public, only the dealers.

Even the Mom~N~Pop small guy repair shops won't be able to do it.

 

[Tim]

I did not think I would like Elogs either, but I have not lost any money running with the same company and it is nice actually taking a real 10 now.

Who's fault was it that you couldn't take a full 10 on paper logs? You or them? If it was you then shame on you, if it was them, shame on you for not standing your ground and shame on them trying to force you.

Safe Haven.

You're in a traffic jam in say.. Texas cuz a Spirit decided to tempt fate and lost.

Your clock runs out. You can't park it in the lane and pull the curtains.

Safe Haven says... the DRIVER has the liberty of running over HOS to locate suitable SAFE Haven.

Safe Haven rule is for HM drivers. From the FMCSA ;

Question 4: Who determines what is a ‘‘safe haven’’?

Guidance: The selection of safe havens is a decision of the ‘‘competent government authorities’’ having jurisdiction over the area. The definition found in §397.5(d)(3) is purposely void of any specific guidelines or criteria. A truck stop may be considered a safe haven if it is so designated by local or State governmental authorities.
Question 5: Section 397.5(d)(3) describes a safe haven as ‘‘* * * an area specifically approved in writing by local, State, or Federal governmental authorities for the parking of unattended vehicles containing Division 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3 materials.’’ Do guidelines exist for establishing approval criteria for safe havens? Is there a national list of approved safe havens available to the public?
Guidance: The FHWA believes the safe haven concept is becoming increasingly obsolete due to readily available alternatives for providing ‘‘attendance at all times’’ for vehicles laden with explosives. The FHWA is aware of two documents that may be used as resources for establishing approval criteria for safe havens. The first document, Construction and Maintenance Procedure Recommendations for Proposed Federal Guidelines of Safe Havens for Vehicles Carrying Class A or Class B Explosives (1985), contains design, construction, and maintenance guidelines. The second document, Recommended National Criteria for the Establishment and Operation of Safe Havens (1990), contains recommended national uniform criteria for approval of safe havens and an inventory of all State-approved safe havens in existence at the time of the report. These two documents may be used both as resources for establishing guidelines for safe haven design and construction, and as source documents for finding other materials that may be used toward the same purpose. These two documents are available to the public through the U.S. Department of Commerce, National Technical Information Service (NTIS), Springfield, Virginia 22161 (phone: (703) 487-4650). The NTIS publications database is also accessible on the internet’s world wide web at http://www.fedworld.gov/ntis.

If there is another rule for "Safe Haven" the FMCSA has it hidden. And it there is some kind of "Safe Haven" HOS rule, post a link, I would like to read it.

It's been said before.. I'll repeat, E-logs require you to plan your trip more carefully. New technology (GPS) and other electronic means are available to assist with planning your run.

*Question 28: Does the emergency conditions exception in 49 CFR 395.1(b)(2) apply to a driver who planned on arriving at a specific rest area to complete his 10 hours driving and found the rest area full, forcing the driver to continue past the ten hours driving looking for another safe parking area?


Guidance: No. The emergency conditions exception does not apply to the driver. It is general knowledge that rest areas have become increasingly crowded for commercial motor vehicle parking, thus, it is incumbent on drivers to look for a parking spot before the last few minutes of a 10 hour driving period.

Your right....plan on stopping at 10.5 driving hours not 10.59 hours.

The stodgy old fart aint' gonna spend money on some "new fangled" thing-a-ma-bob. They know every road and back road in the country and don't have time or desire to "LEARN" something new that would actually help them when confronted with a "NEW" delivery drop, traffic impediments, road closures etc.

If I already know every road and back road in the country why spend $$$$$ on a GPS that would put me under the next 11 foot bridge?
I've gotten by for years with out a "Truckers Atlas" I think I'll make if a few more with out a GPS.

These are the same people that don't want to have anything at all to do with the newer truactors... WHY??

Damn right I dont want a new truactor! It might come with one new fangled GPS thing-a-ma-bob.

 

[j911brick]

Didn't you post recently that you are buying a couple trucks? Wait until some of that new fangled global warming **** goes legs up and the thing is gonna cost $5,000 to get back on the road.

I was told by my dealer that a muffler for a new Volvo costs about $10K and needs regular replacement.

The new fangled OBD readers cost $10K-$20K (per make). If I lose the (only) key to my car I have to order a new one from the dealer, and have the car towed there so they can sync the new key to the car with their $15k computer. Total cost is over $500.

 

[notarps4me]

So with out you being a hypocrite you always get a 10 hour break? You have never falsified a log and have never went over your 11 or 14????

Who's fault was it that you couldn't take a full 10 on paper logs? You or them? If it was you then shame on you, if it was them, shame on you for not standing your ground and shame on them trying to force you.

.

 

[Mike]

Under paper logs, it is commonplace for drivers to falsify their 10 hour breaks, among other things. What we hear (read) on the forum, isn't in line what reality in the industry.

Under paper logs, it is normal for trucks to show up at a receiver around midnight, get unloaded around 5-6am, and away they go. On paper, they showed a 10 hour break. We all know how it works. And it is things like this causing drivers to complain about E-Logs. Can't do that anymore, because even though can find ways to cheat a little, you can't cheat that much. Even with E-Logs, you are cheating if you are getting up, moving into the dock, then going back to bed after getting unloaded to finish out the 10 hour break, but at least you aren't totally blowing up the rules and driving away after being there only 6-7 hours.

 

[Tim]

So with out you being a hypocrite you always get a 10 hour break? You have never falsified a log and have never went over your 11 or 14????

In the 30 years I've been truckin I've broken all most every rule the ICC, DOT, FMCSA has made. In the last 10 years I've broken some rules. In the last 6 years I can say I haven't broken any HOS rules. And without being a hypocrite I can say I dont all ways take a 10 hour break, I split it up and take 8 and 2 breaks.