Yet Another Great E-Logs Debate!

[notarps4me]

Who's fault was it that you couldn't take a full 10 on paper logs? You or them? If it was you then shame on you, if it was them, shame on you for not standing your ground and shame on them trying to force you.

In the 30 years I've been truckin I've broken all most every rule the ICC, DOT, FMCSA has made. In the last 10 years I've broken some rules. In the last 6 years I can say I haven't broken any HOS rules. And without being a hypocrite I can say I dont all ways take a 10 hour break, I split it up and take 8 and 2 breaks.

and you want to "shame on me for the same stuff you have done?" Shame on you........ There is not a person out here that runs 100% in compliance a 100% of the time. Paper or Elogs. Anyone that has been out here for any length of time knows that.

 

[Racer X 69]

I was told by my dealer that a muffler for a new Volvo costs about $10K and needs regular replacement.

Trucks don't have a muffler anymore. Your dealer (like many misinformed people today) was referring to the DPF (diesel particulate filter).

Under normal service they should last about 600,000 miles or more.

That is not regular replacement.

The new fangled OBD readers cost $10K-$20K (per make).

OBDII readers are cheap, $50 to $150. But all they do is read the fault codes.

Snap-On, MAC, OTC, etc. sell scanners with limited parameter editing capability, for aroung $5,000.

The automotive make specific (Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, etc.) reader/programmers are not available to the general public, only dealers, and are indeed very expensive.

The medium and heavy truck repair industry uses a laptop (usually sourced through the chassis or engine manufactuer), connected through a dongle to the diagnostic connector on the truck.

Here is a picture I shot at a dealer shop last year.

View attachment 18248

Each cart has about $5,000 in equipment on it, and about the same value in software.
View attachment 18248

 

[Racer X 69]

Under paper logs, it is commonplace for drivers to falsify their 10 hour breaks, among other things. What we hear (read) on the forum, isn't in line what reality in the industry.

Under paper logs, it is normal for trucks to show up at a receiver around midnight, get unloaded around 5-6am, and away they go. On paper, they showed a 10 hour break. We all know how it works. And it is things like this causing drivers to complain about E-Logs. Can't do that anymore, because even though can find ways to cheat a little, you can't cheat that much. Even with E-Logs, you are cheating if you are getting up, moving into the dock, then going back to bed after getting unloaded to finish out the 10 hour break, but at least you aren't totally blowing up the rules and driving away after being there only 6-7 hours.

I have never used this example in my complaints about e-logs, but I will add it to the list.

 

[Racer X 69]

There is not a person out here that runs 100% in compliance a 100% of the time. Paper or Elogs. Anyone that has been out here for any length of time knows that.

So e-logs are not solving the problem they are supposed to then are they?

 

[Mike]

I have never used this example in my complaints about e-logs, but I will add it to the list.

How can this be added as a complaint? Saying you can't stop for 6 hours and fudge it by another 4 hours to show a 10 hour break is simply admitting to flagrant violations of HOS. Yet, I hear this same stuff being portrayed as legitimate complaints all the time and just laugh at how these statements do nothing but push us closer to a 100 mandate.

 

[Mike]

So e-logs are not solving the problem they are supposed to then are they?

Yes, they are cutting down on the problems in a big way. You are limited in a big way in what you can "try" to get away with while using E-Logs, and in time, it will simply be harder and harder to cheat the system.

 

[Duck]

If I lose the (only) key to my car I have to order a new one from the dealer, and have the car towed there so they can sync the new key to the car with their $15k computer. Total cost is over $500.

My Buick has that key with the chip on it. A dealer around here once charged me $1400 to replace the f***ing computer & the ignition switch when that thing quit working. A year later, when I had the car out at the company's terminal in IA, I used it to go to the motel one day & got stuck there. F***ing thing quit working again. The GM dealer in that town towed the car (with a pickup & a strap, LOL) and fixed it THE RIGHT WAY, ... which was to go to Shadio Rack & get a couple of 30 cent resistors & bypass that stupid interlock crap. I've never had another problem with it, and it only costs $5 to get a copy of the key, at any hardware store, because it doesn't have to have that stupid computer chip built into it.

Trucks don't have a muffler anymore. Your dealer (like many misinformed people today) was referring to the DPF (diesel particulate filter).

Under normal service they should last about 600,000 miles or more.

That is not regular replacement.

They may be designed to last 600,000 miles, but they don't. It's not uncommon for a truck to need that thing replaced once a year.

How can this be added as a complaint? Saying you can't stop for 6 hours and fudge it by another 4 hours to show a 10 hour break is simply admitting to flagrant violations of HOS. Yet, I hear this same stuff being portrayed as legitimate complaints all the time and just laugh at how these statements do nothing but push us closer to a 100 mandate.

Suppose you deliver to a tiny place with no room for your truck, and it's 10 miles from a truck stop.

You get there at midnight, & your appointment is right when they open at 0600. You arrive & park in the dock. You get empty at 0700 and you have to leave because they've got other trucks arriving and only room for one truck at a time, and the street out front is lined with "no parking" signs.

With paper logs, you can leave, go the 10 miles to the truck stop, finish your break, and log it as if you finished your break at the receiver, starting your driving time 15 minutes before you ACTUALLY leave the truck stop, so you account for those 10 miles.

With paper logs I used to be able to do that all the time. Now I simply refuse to accept loads like that. And when the boss bitches about it, I tell them "tell it to the guy who decided to put e-logs in the trucks".

---

There have been times with e-logs when I've had 2-1/2 days to get from Sioux City, IA to Washington DC to deliver to a military base commissary. The way the load is planned, if I drive like normal, taking 10 hr breaks, at the end of Day Two, I'd be somewhere in eastern Ohio, or western PA. (Usually because part of Day One was spent delivering in Iowa somewhere & deadheading to the shipper, so that day ends in Illinois)

So from Ohio, by the time I get to Ft. Meyer or Quantico or wherever, I've used about 6 or 7 hours of my log, but am early for the appointment. Ft. Meyer takes about 1 hour to deliver, Ft. Belvoir takes about 3 hours, and Quantico takes just as long unless you're the first truck. (You also can't enter Quantico during certain hours at night when the gate is closed).

So once I get empty, I'm over my 14 and can't leave.

At Ft. Meyer there's no room, at Ft Belvoir there IS room, but you're not allowed to, ... same with Quantico. Quantico & Belvoir have room for trucks to park & sleep behind the PX but they don't allow it.

So what happens is at the end of Day Two, somewhere around the OH/PA state line, I take a 16 hour break or something. I sleep as long as I possibly can but still wake up after 10 hrs. So I'm sitting in the truck for 6 hours before I even start my log. I get to the base, ... sometimes more than one of those bases, or a regular meat packing plant in Washington DC (inside the 10 mile square) with NO room AT ALL for trucks to park & sleep, .. so by the time I do get empty, I have hours to leave & make it somewhere. And even when I do that, because 2 hours is ALWAYS wasted in traffic on I-270 between Frederick & the DC Beltway, plus time spent at the bases, I still barely have time to make it anywhere. I've had to take 10 hr breaks at that tiny little rest area on I-66 somewhere around ManAsses, VA if I'm lucky enough to find a spot, or to the one just AFTER that DOT scale on I-95 near Dale City, VA.

And what sucks even worse is if I spend 4 hours at Belvoir and then they tell me to use off-duty driving to get to the rest area, ... it takes a freakin' hour to go 45 miles to the rest area on I-66, and then the bastards plan me a load that requires me leaving the rest area after only a 5 hour nap because the "off duty driving" is counted towards my break. (8 consecutive sleeper berth hours is required, OR 10 hours of "off duty", so they change my log so it shows all 10 hours as "off duty".)

 

[notarps4me]

Suppose you deliver to a tiny place with no room for your truck, and it's 10 miles from a truck stop.

You get there at midnight, & your appointment is right when they open at 0600. You arrive & park in the dock. You get empty at 0700 and you have to leave because they've got other trucks arriving and only room for one truck at a time, and the street out front is lined with "no parking" signs.

With paper logs, you can leave, go the 10 miles to the truck stop, finish your break, and log it as if you finished your break at the receiver, starting your driving time 15 minutes before you ACTUALLY leave the truck stop, so you account for those 10 miles.

With paper logs I used to be able to do that all the time. Now I simply refuse to accept loads like that. And when the boss bitches about it, I tell them "tell it to the guy who decided to put e-logs in the trucks".

No; no , no, no you shave 10% of the miles and save the 15 minutes.....

 

[Mike]

Suppose you deliver to a tiny place with no room for your truck, and it's 10 miles from a truck stop.

You get there at midnight, & your appointment is right when they open at 0600. You arrive & park in the dock. You get empty at 0700 and you have to leave because they've got other trucks arriving and only room for one truck at a time, and the street out front is lined with "no parking" signs.

With paper logs, you can leave, go the 10 miles to the truck stop, finish your break, and log it as if you finished your break at the receiver, starting your driving time 15 minutes before you ACTUALLY leave the truck stop, so you account for those 10 miles.

With paper logs I used to be able to do that all the time. Now I simply refuse to accept loads like that. And when the boss bitches about it, I tell them "tell it to the guy who decided to put e-logs in the trucks".

We have addressed this, and schedule our loads to be picked up with plenty of time to take a 10 hour break before delivery.

Once again, the argument made does nothing but put us closer to the 100% mandate. Why? You just falsified your log twice, and that is what D.O.T. is looking at. When the receiver opened the gate, you were supposed to be "on duty" when you pulled in and backed into the dock. When you drove 10 miles to the truck stop, you were supposed to be "on duty". The general public simply reads into this that you broke your 10 hour break "twice", and in their eyes there is no way you got proper rest. You are now a crazed sleep lacking driver that is going to run over their minivan.

Drivers have spilled their guts regarding many situations similar to this, and these are the exact things that the electronic leashes are being implemented for. All the arguments given by drivers going against E-Logs in reality do nothing but reinforce the move to E-Logs for law enforcement and the concerns of the general public.

And be sure to think organizations such as OOIDA. They have continually pointed out the little flaws in the E-Log system, ensuring that by the time we have a 100% mandate, we will have virtually no wiggle room at all. Their attempt to help the industry is just hurting things long term.

 

[Duck]

We have addressed this, and schedule our loads to be picked up with plenty of time to take a 10 hour break before delivery.

Once again, the argument made does nothing but put us closer to the 100% mandate. Why? You just falsified your log twice, and that is what D.O.T. is looking at. When the receiver opened the gate, you were supposed to be "on duty" when you pulled in and backed into the dock. When you drove 10 miles to the truck stop, you were supposed to be "on duty". The general public simply reads into this that you broke your 10 hour break "twice", and in their eyes there is no way you got proper rest. You are now a crazed sleep lacking driver that is going to run over their minivan.

Drivers have spilled their guts regarding many situations similar to this, and these are the exact things that the electronic leashes are being implemented for. All the arguments given by drivers going against E-Logs in reality do nothing but reinforce the move to E-Logs for law enforcement and the concerns of the general public.

And be sure to think organizations such as OOIDA. They have continually pointed out the little flaws in the E-Log system, ensuring that by the time we have a 100% mandate, we will have virtually no wiggle room at all. Their attempt to help the industry is just hurting things long term.

Well when the DOT & the "general public" want to start pushing for federal laws requiring all municipalities to take down all the "no parking" signs along all streets in districts zoned industrial or commercial, widening such streets to make room for trucks if necessary, and require warehouses to allow 10 hour parking for trucks delivering to their facilities (if they have room), then we wouldn't have these problems.

What these laws and forced compliance does, is it puts us between a rock & a hard place. We can choose between getting arrested for trespassing & have the truck towed, or violate HOS rules. And it's not always something we can plan for with "load planning" when we are not the ones who plan the loads in the first place, and usually have little or no ability to reschedule.

 

[Mike]

What these laws and forced compliance does, is it puts us between a rock & a hard place. We can choose between getting arrested for trespassing & have the truck towed, or violate HOS rules. And it's not always something we can plan for with "load planning" when we are not the ones who plan the loads in the first place, and usually have little or no ability to reschedule.

You have more power than you realize. If the customer doesn't allow parking, you don't park there. That means, before you ever pick up the load, you know when you are going to be there and you know whether you are going to be able to get your 10 hour break before you pre-trip your vehicle and drive to the receiver to unload.

If your not going to be able to take a 10 hour break before delivering, somebody (you or dispatch) needs to be on the phone with the receiver to explain the situation and find out about parking. If you cannot complete your 10 hour break at their location, load needs to rescheduled.

So, find out the situation before you even go pick up the load. You know, given your load time, what you are dealing with. If you already know you won't get your break, find out the situation and plan from there. Load may need to be rescheduled. If you are detained by the shipper, again, find out the situation. If the receiver won't let you park there, it's time to reschedule.

This is the adjustment process, and it is a learning process for the driver, trucking company, the shippers, and the receivers.

we are 100% E-Logs, and we have already addressed these situations. There is alot of talk about "what if's" regarding E-Logs. Bottom line, it is just a matter of a simple learning process and increased communication.

If you are on E-Logs and your company has you out on an island and not working with you, it's time to find another employer, because these things are here to stay.

There is a reason that most people who are put on these things actually like them, unless they are dead set in trying to run like an outlaw trucker. They eliminate much of the stress that can be places on you by dispatch, and the stress you often put on yourself to try and do things, knowing they are illegal.

Less Stress, still 3000 plus miles per week (most weeks), still home on weekends. And, I got a nice pay raise after we moved to these things. Once I got past my complaining stage, I have realized it is a win/win situation for me.

 

[Duck]

If your not going to be able to take a 10 hour break before delivering, somebody (you or dispatch) needs to be on the phone with the receiver to explain the situation and find out about parking. If you cannot complete your 10 hour break at their location, load needs to rescheduled.

My company didn't become Tyson's #1 lap-dog carrier by rescheduling loads.

I really need to get out of the reefer business. Actually I've been out of it for months, but am going back in a week or two.

 

[Tim]

and you want to "shame on me for the same stuff you have done?" Shame on you........ There is not a person out here that runs 100% in compliance a 100% of the time. Paper or Elogs. Anyone that has been out here for any length of time knows that.

You're the one that said it was nice to take a full 10 hour break now on e-logs and I took that statement as someone in the past forced you to move on or you did it own.
No one has forced me to break the HOS rules ever. Staying to long at home was the biggest reason why I broke the rules but I never complained about having to do so because I did it to myself.
The underlying assumption of your statement is you broke the rules on your own or someone forced you to break the rules on paper, but now with e-logs you cant.
Just sayin'

 

[Tim]

They eliminate much of the stress that can be places on you by dispatch,....

Telling a dispatcher to F' off was all ways a great stress relaxer for me. Either stand up to them or move on.......simple.

..and the stress you often put on yourself to try and do things, knowing they are illegal.

Really?

Less Stress, still 3000 plus miles per week (most weeks), still home on weekends. And, I got a nice pay raise after we moved to these things. Once I got past my complaining stage, I have realized it is a win/win situation for me.

I'd be stressed if I had run 3K a week. I haven't busted 100K miles in a year in over 3 years.

 

[RACEFAN]

I haven't busted 100K miles in a year in over 3 years.

Slacker! :hiding:

 

[Mike]

My miles are typically very easy miles. 99.9% of our pickups come from two locations. One of them is a preloaded trailer, and we tell them what time we want to pick up the load (15 minutes in and out). The other location, we are usually in and out of there within 45 minutes, and they allow us to load 3 hours early during the day shift, and if the load time falls on the night shift loader, pretty much anytime after he gets there. Rarely at the receiver more than 2 hours, usually 45 minutes to 1.5 hours. No backhaul 99.9% of the time.

and Tim, you know drivers put undue stress on themselves trying to keep a dispatcher happy. You might not do it, I might not do it, but many do because they fear for their jobs, and it has been that way for decades.

Like you, any stress I put on myself was created by me. Usually staying home too long and having to cook the books to show proper breaks and get the load delivered on time, then get back home. I don't have the options to do any of that anymore, which can be annoying, but there is no concerns about getting in trouble on the road now either.

 

[GroceryHauler]

When we first went to E-logs, we filled out surveys on our pickups. If we couldn't park overnight at the pickup, they made sure our appointments were scheduled so we would have time to drive afterward. If the customer was a chronic problem, we put a drop trailer to avoid long waits for loading.

Cooperation between dispatch and the drivers is essential. Like I said, the first year on E-logs was rough but I can't remember the last time I had a problem. Making sure you have a place to park at the end of your drive time is part of your pre-trip planning. If you're not making those plans and getting caught out of hours in the middle of nowhere, that's YOUR failure.

 

[Micabay]

I'd be stressed if I had run 3K a week. I haven't busted 100K miles in a year in over 3 years.

So easy, even a Swift driver can do it.

 

[Mike]

Cooperation between dispatch and the drivers is essential.

Very true

 

[Tim]

Slacker! :hiding:

And proud of it.

So easy, even a Swift driver can do it.

Without hitting anything?

You have more power than you realize....

Sad to say most drivers dont realize that.