Getfit Tommy
Highway Hero
Good analogy Pennywise.... but...
I still don't like being told when to go to bed. Never have, never will...
I still don't like being told when to go to bed. Never have, never will...
Trucking Regulations: They are still trying... ELD... different approaches... this one is actually interesting....
- Thread starter Getfit Tommy
- Start date
Mike
Well-Known Member
This is what brings me back to the real problem, HOS.
I don't agree with the mandate, and fmcsa and states are not ready for the ELD, but the problem you mention is with HOS.
HOS is a problem that predates all of us. The industry needs to fight to reform this. Not force more working hours, but to allow more freedom for us to work however we want to work.
gearjammer
jammer
HOS has been a problem for a long time and you are right they need reformed but to think anyone in the industry will actually fight for this has long since passed, like 30 years past
ironpony
Professional Pot-Stirrer
That is a bogus argument. Your paper logbook doesn't do that now, and neither does any of the electronic logging systems or ELDs. You have exactly the same choices of how to conduct your driving day under paper or an ELD. An ELD only enforces compliance on the drive line.
Unless you mean you are running outlaw and are violating the HOS regulations today.
Uncle Birchy
Well-Known Member
Its about TIME....
the ATA wants the Regulations because Mega Carriers have the resources to Comply by the book
ironpony
Professional Pot-Stirrer
You can't?
Uncle Birchy
Well-Known Member
Fine @Tazz before ya hit the lottery with Walmart..
Ya ran Containers ....did Titan...etc
Heck ya probably done it alot longer than I have...
Uncle Birchy
Well-Known Member
I dont even drive anymore except a Forklift..
Ya I got smart finally and took the $15 an hour...
Uncle Birchy
Well-Known Member
Btw that $15 is Time Clock...
After 40 its $22.50 or "overtime"..
nowadays I actually volunteer for those 12 hour shifts and Saturday nights
Working less hours yet seeing more dough and better benefits too
Getfit Tommy
Highway Hero
@ironpony ~
You already know the answer to that, otherwise you would be calling BS on my "Every man has got to know his limitations" comment.
I'm not saying that advanced technology doesn't have a place. I am saying that it is excessive and some of it is entirely unnecessary... I am also saying that I will nap if I need to, and I don't appreciate those hours having to be subtracted from my total driving hours when I know that I am totally safe to drive. I also don't appreciate being shoved into a sleeper berth mode for ten straight hours when I am totally good to go.
Maybe some of us don't require as much sleep as others. Other people require more. Hell, sometimes a wannabe driver's deciding factor in whether or not he can do this job is just beause he can't handle the excessive driving no matter how long or short. Some people just aren't cut out for it. They are better suited for a 9 to 5, home every night, a routine, in bed and up at the same time every day. That's not me.
So, back in the beginning, we weren't trained to do what the ELD is forcing us to do. Yes, we had logbooks... some people had many, but that doesn't mean that we were being unsafe or that we were tired.
If you want me to say it, the 'Yes" we were running hot, but you already know this.
I am willing to comply with an ELD now up to a point. I just don't think there is enough variation in the system to allow a human to make decisions about how he feels, especially when he knows better than an electronic box
I've also always slept in bits and pieces, even if I hadn't, I still wouldnt need ten hours straight. I slept when the opportunity arose.
Even if there was a day, like a Monday, where I should have been totally refreshed, but yet got tired right out of the gate, I wouldnt stop and grab coffee or do anything crazy to try to keep running. I would pull over and take a short power nap and I'd be good... for a long, long time.
Those days are gone, those days are now controlled by a device, and us "old dogs" who have not been forced to use these devices are going to have to make some huge adjustments.
I'm not a business-owner who is dependent on running hot just because of a financial situation. I just like to run how I know I can run, within my limitations, and for the most part, it falls within logbook regulations, but NEVER has it fallen exactly how anyone but myself say's.
I can't ask for more leeway in the nap-time because it would require more digging into an ECM to see if the truck was really moving or if it was parked. I would say, judge by where I am. I don't want to give reason for MORE devices being implemented that I feel are already counter-productive to my lifestyle.
Like I said before, how does a time of crisis that creates more urgency in freight delivery make a driver less susceptible to sleep deprivation, etc.?? Why waive HOS if they are so excruciatingly important in staying safe?
Why is it O.K to ignore these laws when people feel that they need us to run hard, but not O.K when they feel we shouldn't?
Why no consistency there?
Like I said before, I don't believe that all of these implementations are in the name of Safety. I also do not believe that they are in the name of technological advancement. Some? Maybe. All? No way.
The Trucking Industry just happens to be an industry that is vulnerable because there is potential for a lot of money to be made. We aren't the only industry that will be affected in this way.
When freight slows down because it just can't get there on time, the economy will suffer. This brings up "alternate methods" of freight delivery or consumer materials, and I truly believe that there are industries that are looking for a way to eliminate as many bigrigs as possible from our highways and find other ways of getting the things they need.
Good luck with that.
I also believe that down the road, there will be other changes made after the after-effects of deprivation and drivers walking away from the industry altogether.
Ironically, there are a lot of used trucks for sale right now.
I'm going to go with the flow... that is, if I can handle it. Right now it's too early to tell, but from everything I'm seeing, it kind of looks like we are steering towards shorter runs, hubs, day-cabs, hourly pay, autonomy and .. team driving is really going to be pushed for those companies that really, really want to stay in business. I would imagine it would be cheaper to go that route than to buy more equipment because of lack of productivity.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I have accepted the fact that I will be under the control of an ELD. I don't like it, but I've accepted it. My OP was asking, "when are we going to stop attempting to eliminate this thing?"
What's done is done. It's pretty plain to see.
Some companies like Western Distribution out of Colorado use the ELD as a selling-point to attract new drivers.... like saying "hey, no more paper hassles and no forced-dispatch"... i find that hilarious. That is a statement geared toward someone just coming into the industry.
If it's time for the Industry to make an about-face, then so be it. If I can't deal with it, there are other things I can happily do, but at the same time, I do feel for the guys who are just now purchasing their own rigs, getting their own authority and becoming O.O's... that goes for the small guy also, who has his own authority and runs 10 trucks.
He will lose productivity by a marginal percent, he will have to also have to drive (if he isn't already) and his best customers will find other carriers that can ... do what he 'used' to do.
Like I said, If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. All anyone has done then is just read a bunch of BS that came of the top of my ignorant head.
But...
Time is the ONLY thing that will tell, no matter who say's what.
You already know the answer to that, otherwise you would be calling BS on my "Every man has got to know his limitations" comment.
I'm not saying that advanced technology doesn't have a place. I am saying that it is excessive and some of it is entirely unnecessary... I am also saying that I will nap if I need to, and I don't appreciate those hours having to be subtracted from my total driving hours when I know that I am totally safe to drive. I also don't appreciate being shoved into a sleeper berth mode for ten straight hours when I am totally good to go.
Maybe some of us don't require as much sleep as others. Other people require more. Hell, sometimes a wannabe driver's deciding factor in whether or not he can do this job is just beause he can't handle the excessive driving no matter how long or short. Some people just aren't cut out for it. They are better suited for a 9 to 5, home every night, a routine, in bed and up at the same time every day. That's not me.
So, back in the beginning, we weren't trained to do what the ELD is forcing us to do. Yes, we had logbooks... some people had many, but that doesn't mean that we were being unsafe or that we were tired.
If you want me to say it, the 'Yes" we were running hot, but you already know this.
I am willing to comply with an ELD now up to a point. I just don't think there is enough variation in the system to allow a human to make decisions about how he feels, especially when he knows better than an electronic box
I've also always slept in bits and pieces, even if I hadn't, I still wouldnt need ten hours straight. I slept when the opportunity arose.
Even if there was a day, like a Monday, where I should have been totally refreshed, but yet got tired right out of the gate, I wouldnt stop and grab coffee or do anything crazy to try to keep running. I would pull over and take a short power nap and I'd be good... for a long, long time.
Those days are gone, those days are now controlled by a device, and us "old dogs" who have not been forced to use these devices are going to have to make some huge adjustments.
I'm not a business-owner who is dependent on running hot just because of a financial situation. I just like to run how I know I can run, within my limitations, and for the most part, it falls within logbook regulations, but NEVER has it fallen exactly how anyone but myself say's.
I can't ask for more leeway in the nap-time because it would require more digging into an ECM to see if the truck was really moving or if it was parked. I would say, judge by where I am. I don't want to give reason for MORE devices being implemented that I feel are already counter-productive to my lifestyle.
Like I said before, how does a time of crisis that creates more urgency in freight delivery make a driver less susceptible to sleep deprivation, etc.?? Why waive HOS if they are so excruciatingly important in staying safe?
Why is it O.K to ignore these laws when people feel that they need us to run hard, but not O.K when they feel we shouldn't?
Why no consistency there?
Like I said before, I don't believe that all of these implementations are in the name of Safety. I also do not believe that they are in the name of technological advancement. Some? Maybe. All? No way.
The Trucking Industry just happens to be an industry that is vulnerable because there is potential for a lot of money to be made. We aren't the only industry that will be affected in this way.
When freight slows down because it just can't get there on time, the economy will suffer. This brings up "alternate methods" of freight delivery or consumer materials, and I truly believe that there are industries that are looking for a way to eliminate as many bigrigs as possible from our highways and find other ways of getting the things they need.
Good luck with that.
I also believe that down the road, there will be other changes made after the after-effects of deprivation and drivers walking away from the industry altogether.
Ironically, there are a lot of used trucks for sale right now.
I'm going to go with the flow... that is, if I can handle it. Right now it's too early to tell, but from everything I'm seeing, it kind of looks like we are steering towards shorter runs, hubs, day-cabs, hourly pay, autonomy and .. team driving is really going to be pushed for those companies that really, really want to stay in business. I would imagine it would be cheaper to go that route than to buy more equipment because of lack of productivity.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I have accepted the fact that I will be under the control of an ELD. I don't like it, but I've accepted it. My OP was asking, "when are we going to stop attempting to eliminate this thing?"
What's done is done. It's pretty plain to see.
Some companies like Western Distribution out of Colorado use the ELD as a selling-point to attract new drivers.... like saying "hey, no more paper hassles and no forced-dispatch"... i find that hilarious. That is a statement geared toward someone just coming into the industry.
If it's time for the Industry to make an about-face, then so be it. If I can't deal with it, there are other things I can happily do, but at the same time, I do feel for the guys who are just now purchasing their own rigs, getting their own authority and becoming O.O's... that goes for the small guy also, who has his own authority and runs 10 trucks.
He will lose productivity by a marginal percent, he will have to also have to drive (if he isn't already) and his best customers will find other carriers that can ... do what he 'used' to do.
Like I said, If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. All anyone has done then is just read a bunch of BS that came of the top of my ignorant head.
But...
Time is the ONLY thing that will tell, no matter who say's what.
mndriver
curmudgeon extraordinare
ELD's are nothing but an electronic version of the paper device we are currently using. Nothing else.
One you can lie on. The other you can't.
It all goes back to lying about your 395.8 RODS to cover for mismanagement on the part of you, your carrier or your shipper/receiver.
One you can lie on. The other you can't.
It all goes back to lying about your 395.8 RODS to cover for mismanagement on the part of you, your carrier or your shipper/receiver.
Getfit Tommy
Highway Hero
I really, really hope so.
ironpony
Professional Pot-Stirrer
Then it's obvious - you're whining because the government is going to shutdown your false logging gig.
Don't ask me to shed a tear. That's what got us here.
That's BS and you know it. Sleeper berth hours are not "subtracted from your total driving hours." It comes off your 14.
I've been on elogs for years, and that has never stopped me from napping when I wanted to. It comes down to time management.
There's a whole pile of guys just like you who have screwed up - well beyond their limitations, a pile of falsified logs, and a trail of fatalities in their wake. They were absolutely as sure of themselves as you are.
The inability to operate within the law is why we're here. We are now all saddled with the consequences of that.
Rigjockey
In Gord we trust!
I absolutely have falsified logs. I would go back back a few days and re-write history to make a run work but mostly to get me home and not be stuck 2 hours away from home before my time off.
I used to take a lot of pride and satisfaction when DOT would go over my log with a fine tooth comb. Hand it back to me, Looks legit
I stopped doing all of that when I got the E-Z pass and when I started leaving my cell phone turned on.
I swore I would never work for a company that had ELDs. A buddy of mine convinced me that he was making money and to come over to the company he was working for. I should add buddy was falsifier too.
The only thing that really changed was I could drive more hours and that I had to accept the fact that being 2 hours away from home when my hours ran out meant I had to spend the night 2 hour away from home.
I used to take a lot of pride and satisfaction when DOT would go over my log with a fine tooth comb. Hand it back to me, Looks legit
I stopped doing all of that when I got the E-Z pass and when I started leaving my cell phone turned on.
I swore I would never work for a company that had ELDs. A buddy of mine convinced me that he was making money and to come over to the company he was working for. I should add buddy was falsifier too.
The only thing that really changed was I could drive more hours and that I had to accept the fact that being 2 hours away from home when my hours ran out meant I had to spend the night 2 hour away from home.
Getfit Tommy
Highway Hero
@ironpony
You have no right to make me the scapegoat for why ELD's are being implemented.
The way you attack instead of debate is unreasonable. I try to debate so that I can learn about things, not attack people.
The negativity here is unbelievable.
It is no wonder why people don't get along anymore, at least not like they used to.
I don't have a trail of fatalities following me. I never ran more than one book. I've made statements and comments without attacking anyone, I'm just bringing up topics that obviously are debatable, judging by the replies.
Of all of the guys I ever ran with, I might not agreed with everything that they did, but I've not known a driver ever in my career that caused a fatality, and I've met my share of drivers over time. Back in the day, it was legal for us to run together. Nobody really needed to lie on their logs. That's not even the objective in my post.
Yes, I've known of drivers involved in fatality collisions who were not at fault. Yes, I've seen many, many accidents, not even being involved enough to know who was at fault. I've seen truckers attacked by four-wheelers either driving in the wrong direction, drunk or just playing a form of Four-wheeler Russian Roulette...
To be a truckdriver for so long and to turn right around and blame a truckdriver other than someone just starting in the industry just seems ludicrous.
I was in dispatch for a number of years. I mentioned it before. We had 3000 drivers at that time. I've been involved in Safety and Compliance and a large part of my job was "accident scene representation" ... I would arrive if one of our trucks was involved, I would take the driver to his drug test, I would sign forms with the DOT or the CHP... I've been on all sides. I've not seen a professional trucker at fault yet for a fatality. I don't know where this "wake of fatalities" lies. I've seen Noobs pull some pretty ignorant stunts and I've seen Vets manage to escape them. I've seen more truckers avoid the stupidity on the Highways and Biways than I have ever seen them contribute to it.
I absolutely cannot believe that nobody here has been 100% on their paper logs their whole lives. Neither can I believe that drivers have not found out ways to manipulate their ELD's for whatever reason: More driving time, More sleeping time, Trying to get home, somehow, someway manipulating the thing to serve their needs.
Mark my words: It may not be right away, but the trucking industry, the carriers, OO's, customers, consumers... everyone is going to feel a pinch in the industry. Small trucking companies and OO's will be hurt financially just because of a cut in their productivity and the inability to compete.
I am not taking the blame, and I am not in denial.
Blaming me or drivers like me is just plain unacceptable. Accusing me of not knowing when I am incapable of driving safely, especially by someone who doesn't even know me doesn't even make sense to me.
Too much hate. Too much B.S. Too many unwarranted attacks.
We're all doing the same job and we can't find our way to lighten up on eachother and speak nicely? Or even just a little bit friendlier?
The stress and negativity on this forum is not productive. It's not funny, and it's not attractive.
I think it's time to reconsider a few things. I'll be the first, starting now.
You have no right to make me the scapegoat for why ELD's are being implemented.
The way you attack instead of debate is unreasonable. I try to debate so that I can learn about things, not attack people.
The negativity here is unbelievable.
It is no wonder why people don't get along anymore, at least not like they used to.
I don't have a trail of fatalities following me. I never ran more than one book. I've made statements and comments without attacking anyone, I'm just bringing up topics that obviously are debatable, judging by the replies.
Of all of the guys I ever ran with, I might not agreed with everything that they did, but I've not known a driver ever in my career that caused a fatality, and I've met my share of drivers over time. Back in the day, it was legal for us to run together. Nobody really needed to lie on their logs. That's not even the objective in my post.
Yes, I've known of drivers involved in fatality collisions who were not at fault. Yes, I've seen many, many accidents, not even being involved enough to know who was at fault. I've seen truckers attacked by four-wheelers either driving in the wrong direction, drunk or just playing a form of Four-wheeler Russian Roulette...
To be a truckdriver for so long and to turn right around and blame a truckdriver other than someone just starting in the industry just seems ludicrous.
I was in dispatch for a number of years. I mentioned it before. We had 3000 drivers at that time. I've been involved in Safety and Compliance and a large part of my job was "accident scene representation" ... I would arrive if one of our trucks was involved, I would take the driver to his drug test, I would sign forms with the DOT or the CHP... I've been on all sides. I've not seen a professional trucker at fault yet for a fatality. I don't know where this "wake of fatalities" lies. I've seen Noobs pull some pretty ignorant stunts and I've seen Vets manage to escape them. I've seen more truckers avoid the stupidity on the Highways and Biways than I have ever seen them contribute to it.
I absolutely cannot believe that nobody here has been 100% on their paper logs their whole lives. Neither can I believe that drivers have not found out ways to manipulate their ELD's for whatever reason: More driving time, More sleeping time, Trying to get home, somehow, someway manipulating the thing to serve their needs.
Mark my words: It may not be right away, but the trucking industry, the carriers, OO's, customers, consumers... everyone is going to feel a pinch in the industry. Small trucking companies and OO's will be hurt financially just because of a cut in their productivity and the inability to compete.
I am not taking the blame, and I am not in denial.
Blaming me or drivers like me is just plain unacceptable. Accusing me of not knowing when I am incapable of driving safely, especially by someone who doesn't even know me doesn't even make sense to me.
Too much hate. Too much B.S. Too many unwarranted attacks.
We're all doing the same job and we can't find our way to lighten up on eachother and speak nicely? Or even just a little bit friendlier?
The stress and negativity on this forum is not productive. It's not funny, and it's not attractive.
I think it's time to reconsider a few things. I'll be the first, starting now.
Getfit Tommy
Highway Hero
I absolutely have falsified logs. I would go back back a few days and re-write history to make a run work but mostly to get me home and not be stuck 2 hours away from home before my time off.
I used to take a lot of pride and satisfaction when DOT would go over my log with a fine tooth comb. Hand it back to me, Looks legit
I stopped doing all of that when I got the E-Z pass and when I started leaving my cell phone turned on.
I swore I would never work for a company that had ELDs. A buddy of mine convinced me that he was making money and to come over to the company he was working for. I should add buddy was falsifier too.
The only thing that really changed was I could drive more hours and that I had to accept the fact that being 2 hours away from home when my hours ran out meant I had to spend the night 2 hour away from home.
You actually said it better than I did, and a lot straighter to the point.
Perfect.
Rigjockey
In Gord we trust!
What I really want to know is how DOT and other revenue rangers are going to make up for the short fall in revenue when ELDs are law?
There goes all the addition/subtraction mistakes resulting in violations.
Form and manner violations for location and spelling mistakes.
Those that make calculation errors trying to split sleeper berth.
Not many drivers are going to be caught out and over hours when the ELD clearly displays exactly how much time the have left for the day or week.
LEOs will have to find new and exciting, creative ways to make up for lost revenue
There goes all the addition/subtraction mistakes resulting in violations.
Form and manner violations for location and spelling mistakes.
Those that make calculation errors trying to split sleeper berth.
Not many drivers are going to be caught out and over hours when the ELD clearly displays exactly how much time the have left for the day or week.
LEOs will have to find new and exciting, creative ways to make up for lost revenue
Tazz
Infidel
How many of you actually received a monetary fine for logs?What I really want to know is how DOT and other revenue rangers are going to make up for the short fall in revenue when ELDs are law?
There goes all the addition/subtraction mistakes resulting in violations.
Form and manner violations for location and spelling mistakes.
Those that make calculation errors trying to split sleeper berth.
Not many drivers are going to be caught out and over hours when the ELD clearly displays exactly how much time the have left for the day or week.
LEOs will have to find new and exciting, creative ways to make up for lost revenue
Public records say about 10%. They do not generate near as much revenue as the truck stop counter would have you believe.
Rigjockey
In Gord we trust!
I have never received any because all of my bullshit was believable and undisputable
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