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The werner Hostile Work Environment

Sean McQuaid

Whiny baby
Hostile Work Environment:

An example of a way a hostile work environment may be defined is (1) when a boss or manager begins to engage in a manner designed to make you quit in retaliation for your actions. Suppose you report safety violations at work, get injured at work, attempt to join a union, complain to upper level management about a problem at work, or act as a whistleblower in any respect. (2) Then, the company's response is to do all manner of things to make you quit, like writing you up for work rules you didn't break, reducing your hours, scheduling you for hours that are in total conflict with what you can do, setting impossible goals, replacing a base pay with commission or reducing your salary. (3) The company's reaction can be viewed as creating a hostile work environment, one that makes it impossible to work and is an attempt to make you quit so that the employer does not have to pay unemployment benefits.

Breaking it down by the numbers with the experiences I had by Werner, the Hostile work environment is as follows:

((1): a boss or manager - in my case, my dispatcher - begins to engage in a manner designed to make you quit in retaliation for your actions): In my case, I was forced to run against the clock with just about every load I was assigned to in spite that just about all loads have a window which exceeds the delivery time I was given. I asked at many of my stops if the load had a window, and they told me YES. The result was I had no time for showering on a long distance load (often showering must be done while enroute as it is often that the 10 hour shutdown occurs in a location where a shower is unavailable - such as a rest area, parking lot - etc.). I was denied personal drive time to get to a shower of shop for food often because I was under a preassigned load. Or I did not put in for personal drive time because after a day on the road, I needed my full rest. 10 hours gave me just enough time to eat, do paperwork and check scheduling, and get my 8 hours sleep to say nothing of factoring in showering and wait time for the shower. In using the term my dispatcher used - "fighting", I began to fight him as he saw no reason when I attempted to get him to ease up on my tight running times. And if I was shut down at a location more than the normal 10 hour, the situation was the same, that being no shower or place to shop for food - etc. where I was, and waiting until I was on the move again to get to a shower, food etc.. Running against the clock as I had to do is contrary to safety; and because I had no time for showering and food breaks, goes contrary to health and hygene. My dispatcher contends it was because of how I logged. I did not log in any way contrary to D.O.T. regulations, but I did log contrary to Werner's attempt to make a driver work (be on duty) more than 70 hours a week. I did not quit. Instead I began to take breaks and showers when I really needed them, resulting in late loads. I might add that I was run far more than veterin drivers with years in the company because it was cheaper to run me (pay scale). I spoke to many veterins driving the same regions I was, who would sit often for days waiting for a load assignment at the same time I was recieving preassigned loads often before I delivered the load I was under. And with the recession, I am sure the company was saving any way they could.

((2): Then, the company's response is to do all manner of things to make you quit, like writing you up for work rules you didn't break, reducing your hours, scheduling you for hours that are in total conflict with what you can do, setting impossible goals....): In my case, Because I did not quit in response to my dispatcher's continued reluctance to loosten my travel time a little, I was set up for the late loads. I will note the fact that in addition to my low pay scale being the reason to run me more than the veterin driver, it also works out that the more miles a dispatcher runs a driver, the more the dispatcher makes. In conjunction to taking care of myself, delivering on time (especially long distance) was the impossible task. I even recieved a load on an occasion which could not be delivered on time even without a break of any kind. There were also occasions during my tight running times I was set up for load swaps with other drivers - something Werner seems to have a habit of doing. But because my times were so tight, and in my attempt to deliver on time without time to stop multiple times, I did not stop every time the Qualcomm beeped. This is because most of the time the messages were the same "generic" bulletins sent daily. Stopping - say 8 times (average amount of times the Qualcomm would beep a generic message in a day) - can lose an hour or more on the road because I'd have to pull into a rest area to stop the truck and use the Qualcomm. And most often, I did not have that hour to lose. My Dispatcher (JD Hodgestradt) seemed to think I could stop multiple times to look at every single Qualcomm message and still make the loads on time. After missing load swaps and arguing with dispatch about the reasons why, I began to stop each time the qualcomm beeped (often every half hour) which resulted in slower average speeds and late loads. This forced dispatch to back up my delivery times. This is a case where dispatch/driver relations were not working out, and I was not given another dispatcher after my request to Fleet Management. The impossible task thing is something I also experienced with Swift when getting a truck assignment; resulting in my driver code being terminated which they put on my DAC report as a V.Q. (Voluntary Quit) - an earlier result of the recession and having hired too many drivers for the government subsidy these trucking companies recieved for taking on student drivers. The end result with Werner was I was terminated for late loads, and disciplinary issues (fighting with dispatch).

((3): The company's reaction can be viewed as creating a hostile work environment, one that makes it impossible to work and is an attempt to make you quit so that the employer does not have to pay unemployment benefits): It is my contention that the company (Werner Enterprises) made it impossible for me to work in not seeing reason where the tight load times were concerned and not giving me a better window to properly take care of myself. Other examples of an impossible work environment with Werner were repairs not addressed in a timely manner (my truck was down a total of 15 days in a 40 day period for one problem which resulted in a low production rating my dispatcher tried to blame me for), and a Qualcomm System saying I was idling my truck when I was not. The issues of idling was cause for termination as well as late loads and low production, and I have seen many terminations of drivers within Werner for idling. I had this pressure and worry over something I was not doing on top of my load times, and saw myself as being set up in this instance as well as the late loads. This added to fights with dispatch, and more added stress on me. Because I did not quit (in a bad economy/recession, there was no way I was going to simply quit), the company used the late loads and my fighting with dispatch as reason for terminating me. this results in my not being able to collect unemployment benefits as per what I read in the guidelines to be eligible.

The tight running times (time vs. mileage) is all a matter of record through the electronic logging system. Additionally, my dispatcher (J.D. Hodgestradt) was uncooperative in helping me when I'd not know what certain things would mean. He'd not address my inquiry when I put it to him. As far as I see, Werner created an unnecessary hostile work environment on top of the usuals in trucking I was well aware of and willing to accept. The usuals being low pay, long hours, only 1 day off per week worked, away from home at least 3 weeks at a time, rude people in the terminals, not to mention the everyday hazards non-professional drivers create on the road on a daily basis. Werner added to these anomalies by not allowing me time when enrout on a long distance haul to properly care for myself, and do my job in a safe manner.
 
I'm talking about YOU,you fine drivers guilty till proven innocent.That's why I say go work for a company you'd fit right in.Hitting that tree branch was yrs ago.I was just making a point.So lets just drop it.
YESSSSSSSSSSS..............so true...............!!!!!!!!

............we ARE GUILTY first and foremost..............and it'll be that way forever and ever.............and do not forget the CSA2010/2011......that will nail many more drivers..............
 
no it ain't closed...............you're trying to say you a had a NON-PREVENTABLE.........when IN FACT you got a PREVENTABLE......of course drivers will always say you were not wrong...........this is why the safety dept does it's job.........and none of us like it, not even me............but, "its the way it is".............isn't it...........??

you just can't face it, you were guilty of the accident.............but you're trying to pass it off otherwise..........
Kiss my AZZ glenn,I was not guilty.I accidentally hit it because noone would let me over in wall to wall traffic after having my blinker on for over 10 minutes so what do u want me to do ease on over maybe hitting a car in the process.CASE CLOSED I am not answering anymore of oyur posts youre starting to get on my nerves like a bad toothache.
 
Kiss my AZZ glenn,I was not guilty.I accidentally hit it because noone would let me over in wall to wall traffic after having my blinker on for over 10 minutes so what do u want me to do ease on over maybe hitting a car in the process.CASE CLOSED I am not answering anymore of oyur posts youre starting to get on my nerves like a bad toothache.

you even said it your self, the safety dept didn't "see it that way", and you got a preventable...........you should have hit a car.......the aggravation you went through would have then been worth it.

and yes...........those nasty toothaches.........wait till you get older..they come more frequently.........

i will stop now............i don't want you any more upset...........

but you do know i was right, which is always good
 
:nono:
As you can see, McQuid has made his mission in life to sink BIG BLUE! He clearly thinks the DOT exists for the purpose of time management so he can take a shower, when he wants,, He needs a 10hr rest after working a full day. humnn,, Has no real understanding of how things work except of what an ex trucker,,(who also couldn't figure out how to work it ) taught him at a truck school. I want to shower on my break, I plan my time to get my showers when I want,,as most of us do,,( and there are exceptions,,but I never thought my dispatcher would actually do this for me...I take responsibility for taking care of my needs.,, but would NEVER be late on a load because I needed to shower, Shit,,take a rag bath,, I have washed my hair at a hydrant in less than 4 minutes,,( you real guys know you have to do what you have to do,,,

Windows on loads? How would a consig know that by delivering a load at the end of the window that now you can't make your Pick up on your next load ? sooo now you will lose the pre-assigned or wait while someone has to un-do your screwup. He is soo intent on whistleblowing,,its just amazing,, like the DOT was created for his purpose.lol

Hostile work environment ? Well yea,,it could be called that,,but its the real world,,,,

I am thinking maybe McQuaid should ask himself why if thousands of men and women CAN do the job and make a living doin it,,,WHY can't he ? We know why the loosers can't,,,,,,,cause they are too high maintenance,,the funniest part is he actually believes he will get a call inviting him to come back,,,He is a legend in his own mind !
 
well, I come from, a military family, and Ive taken, many bird baths in my day..I dn't get it? Hostile work, environment? You have, or had it made, working there.Dispatchers, do ride some drivers, sometimes but its all, in how you talk, to them, usually. The important thing is, not to make it personal. We is a big word...Thats why military says Army of one..We means working as a team,& be a team player.
 
That's quite the screenname u have,what's it mean,LOL.
well, I come from, a military family, and Ive taken, many bird baths in my day..I dn't get it? Hostile work, environment? You have, or had it made, working there.Dispatchers, do ride some drivers, sometimes but its all, in how you talk, to them, usually. The important thing is, not to make it personal. We is a big word...Thats why military says Army of one..We means working as a team,& be a team player.
 
this is right.........there was no difference, because you still caused damage to the black top, that costs the warehouse thousands of dollars to have laid down.........

this is true too........if a witness or even anyone in the car you cause damage to gets your plate number, or even the name of the company, you will be stopped and can face "leaving the scene of an accident charges".........now try and get a job after those.......a blown tire can cause very serious damages and injury, up to and including the other vehicle running off the road.........at first, tire blow outs and stones hitting windshields were considered as "road hazards"........but NOT anymore.....thanks in part to all the lawyers out there. and with CSA2010/2011 coming, these will now be considered accidents that a driver could have avoided, by doing a proper pre-trip.

now, right here, you sound like your typical @ss self......if a newbie DOES NOT DO AS TOLD by the trainer, the trainer that holds your trucking future in his/her hands, you will be reported to the company and most likely fired ASAP.....

the driver trainer always has the LAST WORD in whether or not a newbie makes it with the company. so to listen to this bit of advice from you, a NOBODY, would be detrimental to the newbies out there. and i DO MEAN to call you a nobody, no one with ANY surmountable driving experience whatsoever, except the 3 or 4 million miles you allegedly drove in your frigging 4 wheeler. you got fired from your 2 jobs in LESS THAN 6 months TOTAL TIME.........right out of school.........that speaks volumes of you and your lack of expertise.........

it is NOT UP TO YOU, to worry about the veteran drivers, and their miles for the week........each person takes care of their own........if the veteran drivers were so worried about their miles, then they should have complained for themselves, they didn't need your input into their problems. i personally never worried about any of my company drivers sitting at a truck stop, if they asked me why i was leaving, i'd tell them "i get the job done, and they like me", or i tell them, "i'm good at what i do so they keep me running", do you think i would care what they would think of me...?? hell no, i gotta think about #1......me........and you are right as i too have said, the industry DOES NOT NEED anymore drivers....... the economy spans across every field of employment, and trucking will NEVER be free of any hardships.

not even when CSA2010/2011 comes on board, will more drivers be needed.........it will be a leaner-meaner trucking industry soon enough............

and i do foresee the apprenticeship program the ATA/DOT is trying to push, where newbies have to spend "up to" 2 years before they can be set free on their own.......
What friggin damage? Shall I post the pics?

This will put a lot of people out of work. Not worth it to get a CDL these days. Proper pre trips will not avoid a blow out. Something on the road you don't see will cause that. Case in point: I was running in the middle of the night, and a driver in front of me had run over some metal on the road. BOOM. I stopped behind him to make sure all was okay, and that if he needed someone to vouch for him that he did not do anything unsafe, or leave the roadway to cause the blowout, to contact me. A proper and thorough pretrip will not always avoid a mishap. But it is true that they sure help, which was why I was all over my rig before starting out - even if it meant logging 30 minutes on line 4.

No. I am being just the same ass as you are. No damage, don't file an accident report, and fight your trainer on it if you're a student.

You're a "nobody" too as far as I am concerned. I doubt you are half of what you claim to be. Just as you doubt my claims. Here again, this guy can't quote me right. I seriously think he's got a serious reading comprehension problem, or just likes to change what people say (after all, he already omitted one of my words from this thread to make him out to be praised by me - LOL). I drove four wheelers better than a million miles over 30 years. NOT 3 to 4 million. What an idiot. How do I know this? By knowing I put over 200,000 miles on 4 cars, over 100,000 on two others, and various other cars with 20,000 - 50,000 miles put on each of them. I spent a lot of time on the roads.

My "input" happens to be a fact. I have been to too many truck stops and terminals in my short time as a truck driver where there were many veteran drivers sitting and bitching about not getting miles and being starved out. It's a fact. PERIOD.

I am #1 too. That's why I went by the book.

Now you say up to 2 years in an apprenticeship program before you are cut loose and on your own. First you say a year, now you say two. Do you know what you are talking about at all? You can't even be consistant with what you say. Think I am misquoting YOU?! I'll direct you to the post where you said a year. IF I am ever allowed to drive again, and IF the D.O.T./A.T.A. pushes this thing up to a year (to say nothing of two), then I won't do it. It does not take a year to learn this job, and I do not run team. I think a lot of others will feel the same way, and therefore, there will eventually (5 years maybe?) be a shortage of drivers.

Yeah, that's right. 2 jobs within 6 months. YOU don't know shit about what happened. YOU twist what I have said into things that never existed. I fell through the cracks of bullshit. Some of which i admit I could have avoided, but I didn't. Now I am not to drive because of the stupid crap I experienced? Frankly, I could care less as it's not a job that's "all that". The pay is lousy, and they own you. I can do better driving a box van, or even a taxi cab. And I shall do so. I can work two jobs as a cabbie and working for a small delivery outfit and do far better than I could as a Werner or Swift driver.

And yes, I do have things to offer. It does not take years on the road in a semi to have things to offer. I read. I understand what I read (this is evident in the fact I have excellent grades from grade school through college). What I do not offer is how to cheat. Think I don't know about logging line 1 to save on my 70? Think I don't know it's for the company, and not for me? There are regs in place for safety. I as a new driver had every right to be safe and run less miles than the veteran. Think I don't know the company wanted me running more for THEIR money? I was low man on the totem pole with the per mile pay. They saved money running a greenhorn twice as much as the veteran. This makes the highways far more dangerous. A greenhorn has no business running like he/she has ooodles of experience out there. I have driven over 30 years. What about the 23 year old greenhorn who has barely driven 5 years and has far less than 100,000 miles behind them? Call that safe?

You know what glenn I have a change of heart towards sean if thats alright with u.Yes once upon a time I did hate him for the longest time.Everybody has a way of doing things as far as the laws are concerned.Sean has his way I have mine and u have yours.You can't condemn him for what he thinks is right.If you both would quit acting childish and hear eachother out you actually might acomplish something.The name calling and belittling eachother isnt the way.You glenn are an instructor start acting like it and u sean are middle aged start acting like it.

If you really had a change of heart - thank you. I did wrongs to you in the past, and I told Sinister my wrong. He deleted what i asked. I stepped over the line, and I admitted it. We will probably continue to get on each other's nerves, but hey, it's the way of things I guess. Just to mention: It's not what I THINK is right, it's what I KNOW as per Federal guidelines. I had a right to log line 4 when I was not permitted to leave and do as I wish. If I am to remain in readiness, I am ON DUTY - PERIOD. As I said, I don't care what other drivers do. And I am sure there are drivers who'd be more than happy to take a lod I could not because I had no more hours. Incidentally, and to repeat yet again, I NEVER had to do a 34 because of my logging but ONE time. All other times, I had a 34 over a slow weekend anyway. And later after I had some more experience, MAYBE I would have logged line 1 to save hours - MAYBE. But that is MY decision as per FEDERAL REGS. And the company could have made money off me as I logged. well over 2,500 miles a week can easily be done. That's plenty for a newbie who does not know anything.

I agree sean,don't file an accident report if no damage just keep your mouth shut.Some things are better left unsaid.Alot of redtape if u do.I hit a tree branch on hwy 1 in philly.Wall to wall trafic and had my blinker on 10 minutes or longer noone would let me over.No hard damage just a small dent in side on trl.When I got to the drop yard I gave it a thoural check on top, inside ect.But I called safety anyways and they made a big deal about it.Companies keep things from us all the time.Companies never notice the good in drivers always the bad.They don't accept the loyal and honesty in many of the drivers just that he or she had an accident.Lets give him a drug test and suspend him for a few days they put them on a yrs probation no matter how minor it is.The best thing for me is never drive for a big company because I do get in their face.I respect them as much as they do us.Alot of the small companies like the one I drive for do respect the drivers and know we are the backbone.Many have been drivers and still are.Jason my boss drives trk and he understands shit happens and does'nt say a word about it.I dont have any stupid depts to deal with and not put on hold like werner is well known for especially road brkdown.

This has been off topic, but yes, I agree. If there is no damage to anything, don't file an accident report, and don't be forced to. As for trainers being the last word, that's a crock. Especially when a trainer can be in the position they are in after 6 months with a company like Swift (I have even heard of things as low as 3 months). Many of these people are nothing more than newbie greenhorns themselves.

ok, let's see what we have here.........

sean, not even a driver, but a failure of one, gives out information or advice, NOT to fill out an accident report...........and you patty agree with this........?? sean has NO competency or experience to give out advice to anyone.......

ok, now, let me set up a "true event" that happened to a former student of mine from the state of Mass.........

he was a driver of just over 25 years of experience..............

he was driving down a street one early morning.......he see's a road crew working along the side of the shoulder. he moves over ever so slightly (he claims), that he hits a street sign, and bends the sign............

he doesn't stop.............he drives on............the workers heard the scrapping noise...........but the driver keeps on going...........

when he stops finally, at his drop point, about an hour later he gets a call from dispatch.............he had an accident...........!! he thinks they are crazy...........

he gets fired for "leaving the scene of an accident"...........his license is suspended for the obligatory 1 year, as per CDL rules........

after the one year, he goes to the DMV to re-instate his license............Mass says, "NO, you need to go back to trucking school and go thru training"...........this to a guy with 25+ years driving......?? YES..............

all because he did not stop, he did not report it..............

in your "incident" patty, what if, and i do ask, what if............there was a witness that called your tree branch knocking down, running off event to the cops......?? you too would have been charged with leaving the scene of an accident. what if, that tree was an old historic tree the city or town or state was trying to keep healthy and you killed it...........seriously.........you had better re-think the consequences of your actions........

and to "agree"........?? with sean on NOT making out an accident report.........?? are you that crazy...........??

in most instances, when one admits fault right away, there isn't much in the way of "punishment".........but...........let the company find out you hid something, then BAAAM........they come down harder on you then you can ever imagine, up to and including firing you...........because now, the damage to the trailer WILL BE more extensive, especially from the time you drop that trailer, to the time someone else uses it, and he damages it, but keeps quiet, but his damage is far worse than yours............try and talk your way outta that one.........

As mentioned, I do have valid input to offer. Experience does not mean book smarts, and vice versa.

Accidents resulting in damage require a report. You are talking different circumstances here.

he claimed he "bent" the sign, not knocked it down or flatten it.

how do you know you didn't knock down a power line or cable tv line or telephone line.....?? you didn't stop. the branch could have been on your trailer roof, and fell off much later, striking a car........are you going to use this "defense" in the winter and say, "i didn't know i had snow/ice up there officer, and that caused the guy behind me to be killed when it fell off".......you do know there are more and more states coming up with snow removal laws for truckers.......???

do you realize the number of drivers that cause damage each and every day and hide that.......?? how many times did you hook up to a trailer and found it with dents, scratches, dings, scrapes, and you wrote it up to CYA........??

don't you realize the costs involved with trailers being down for repairs?? don't you realize the cost of re-skinning the side of a trailer or its roof??

for the safety dept to say "you should have been reading your map, while you were driving", is hard to take.....after all. it WAS the safety dept......would someone have really said that..??

and why weren't you in the lane you belonged earlier.........?? how many times do we see 4 wheelers wait till the last minute..........???

have you ever been in L.A. traffic.........?? i have........and you had better be in your needed lane dozens (if not hundreds) of yards before you need to be, or you ain't getting there......

poor planning on one's part causes problems. up until this very day, you will never really know if you didn't knock out someone's power or phone service. what if some person on oxygen needed help right away, but you took out their phone line, and that person died......??????

and you "agreed" with sean.........to basically hide damages.......??? no wonder some trucking companies are going broke, as they have to pay for damages careless drivers cause. no wonder trucking companies fire newbies at the first incident, or MAKE THEM write up an accident report............

There was NO damage with my so-called accident.

Truck routes are not always maintained as they should be. The driver should be on the caution at ALL times, but unless a route is marked NO TRUCKS, then I don't see the driver TOTALLY at fault if something happens where local maintenance would have prevented it.

Glenn, after this post I cannot understand your beef with Sean. Sean is saying he is going to do everything by the book. You pretty much are saying the same thing. If everyone did everything by the book(companies and drivers) there would be less accidents, and things would go much more smoothly for everyone involved. So Sean is right when it comes to doing things by the book.

In Glenn's mind, I was wrong for following FEDERAL guidelines to stay safe, and the company was right for giving me a hard time about my logging. My D.M. even told me on the phone that he ran me because of how I logged. But they could not fire me for my by the book logging. They set me up in another way. I will maintain my view until the day I die as long as their is a FEDERAL book of regs that the company has no right to over-ride.

glenn I did'nt know.I took it once before and it was smooth as silk and besides it being a truckers route and says truckers route as well they should keep those brances trimmed dont ya think????????????????????????????????????????????????Shit happens.Are u one of those perfect drivers that has never hit anything or maybe u have and didnt feel it was that bad only your company felt it was.Im not trying to sell u anything.Youre just like the companies believing only what u want to not hearing the drivers side,gee imagine that,why am I not shocked.

Like I mentioned above, it's a local thing to keep a truck route cleared. Otherwise, put up a sign forbidding trucks.

shit does happen patty. when i was 18 years old along time ago i turned a rig with oil field equipment on its side trying to be a good guy and pulling off to the shoulder of the road to let a car go by. i didnt have the rig secured tight enough and the load shifted and the next thing i knew i was in the passenger seat kissing asphalt. it was my dumb ass fault and a lesson well learned to say the least. my boss told me i couldnt "drive a nail" without checkin with him first.

I am glad you came out of it, and are still driving. Just don't put any rub marks of any kind on any surface. Not with Steven Gregg around.
 
Hi Patty, Brickmanndaman, I am only guessing: Masonry, bussiness-(Brick Man The man), He is very good at building. With Bricks.
And possibly his name is (Mann). Just guessing, lets see if he replies.
 
like we've been telling sean............"it's the way it is"..................no matter truck route or not........if we need to be on a certain road, we are there, and so are the tree's and traffic.........it's a given.........you hit an take out a tree branch and do damage, its an accident. unless you personally climbed up on top, you would never know you ripped open the roof of the trailer.

and yes.......ever truck routes WILL have low branches........you cannot blame the town/city/state for the low branches. and they will not trim them for your convenience. and if you knock one down, and it damages the vehicle behind you, you had an accident.........

Yup, that's the way it is. Because of the economy, the lack of any real need for drivers, and a Federal subsidy program in place that companies are abusing. Sooner or later, this will come to light.



Alot of drivers out here are excellent drivers they just get that bad end of the stick in so many cases.You like so many do not give them the benefit of the doubt.I learned yrs ago truckers are guilty till proven innocent.


Yes, the guilty until proven innocent thing is valid. And in more than just the trucking world. Glenn is not an excellent driver - he is GOD. A legend in his own mind.


YESSSSSSSSSSS..............so true...............!!!!!!!!

............we ARE GUILTY first and foremost..............and it'll be that way forever and ever.............and do not forget the CSA2010/2011......that will nail many more drivers..............

I can't wait for CSA 2010. I want to see what it does to these companies who think they are next to God.


no it ain't closed...............you're trying to say you a had a NON-PREVENTABLE.........when IN FACT you got a PREVENTABLE......of course drivers will always say you were not wrong...........this is why the safety dept does it's job.........and none of us like it, not even me............but, "its the way it is".............isn't it...........??

you just can't face it, you were guilty of the accident.............but you're trying to pass it off otherwise..........

Give it up patty. He's God, and he is right - ROFL. Let's see a show of hands who really believe Glenn has NEVER EVER made a mistake or done anything wrong. Especially when he was a greenhorn. OOOOPPS - crap - I forgot. He was born experienced and with perfection. He was born with a steering wheel in his hands.


well, I come from, a military family, and Ive taken, many bird baths in my day..I dn't get it? Hostile work, environment? You have, or had it made, working there.Dispatchers, do ride some drivers, sometimes but its all, in how you talk, to them, usually. The important thing is, not to make it personal. We is a big word...Thats why military says Army of one..We means working as a team,& be a team player.

Don't bother trying to 'get it". Too much has been written on this subject by me. You'll probably never get it anyway. But werner did create a hostile work environment by not allowing me to go by a book a higher authority wrote. They created a hostile work environment by pushing up my load times to just about impossible schedules, and in the process, prevented me from getting my needs, taking breaks we all have a right to take, and taking showers so I'd not have to worry about getting into a truck stop after 5PM (we all know how that can be), and telling me I am idling when I am not (another thing that will get you fired). The work environment was hostile.


I know a few things about the military and being a "team player". Being a team player in the military and just about every civilian job does not include being forced to ignore regs put in place by a superior entity. I've never experienced it before, and i doubt I ever will again. And like I said, the economy, the federal subsidy programs, slow freight, ease of getting drivers they don't need, and many other things have people who run this industry in particular going absolutly nuts. It's a game of screweing as many as they can before they finally get screwed.
 
Sean don't u just love how glenn twist things around?????????He tells you what happened that day.In my case he was hiding between the trk and trl and took pictures, got his cam corder out the whole 9 yards and told me what really happened.What would we do without all the glenns in the world.Theres more glenns at companies then I can count.
What friggin damage? Shall I post the pics?

This will put a lot of people out of work. Not worth it to get a CDL these days. Proper pre trips will not avoid a blow out. Something on the road you don't see will cause that. Case in point: I was running in the middle of the night, and a driver in front of me had run over some metal on the road. BOOM. I stopped behind him to make sure all was okay, and that if he needed someone to vouch for him that he did not do anything unsafe, or leave the roadway to cause the blowout, to contact me. A proper and thorough pretrip will not always avoid a mishap. But it is true that they sure help, which was why I was all over my rig before starting out - even if it meant logging 30 minutes on line 4.

No. I am being just the same ass as you are. No damage, don't file an accident report, and fight your trainer on it if you're a student.

You're a "nobody" too as far as I am concerned. I doubt you are half of what you claim to be. Just as you doubt my claims. Here again, this guy can't quote me right. I seriously think he's got a serious reading comprehension problem, or just likes to change what people say (after all, he already omitted one of my words from this thread to make him out to be praised by me - LOL). I drove four wheelers better than a million miles over 30 years. NOT 3 to 4 million. What an idiot. How do I know this? By knowing I put over 200,000 miles on 4 cars, over 100,000 on two others, and various other cars with 20,000 - 50,000 miles put on each of them. I spent a lot of time on the roads.

My "input" happens to be a fact. I have been to too many truck stops and terminals in my short time as a truck driver where there were many veteran drivers sitting and bitching about not getting miles and being starved out. It's a fact. PERIOD.

I am #1 too. That's why I went by the book.

Now you say up to 2 years in an apprenticeship program before you are cut loose and on your own. First you say a year, now you say two. Do you know what you are talking about at all? You can't even be consistant with what you say. Think I am misquoting YOU?! I'll direct you to the post where you said a year. IF I am ever allowed to drive again, and IF the D.O.T./A.T.A. pushes this thing up to a year (to say nothing of two), then I won't do it. It does not take a year to learn this job, and I do not run team. I think a lot of others will feel the same way, and therefore, there will eventually (5 years maybe?) be a shortage of drivers.

Yeah, that's right. 2 jobs within 6 months. YOU don't know shit about what happened. YOU twist what I have said into things that never existed. I fell through the cracks of bullshit. Some of which i admit I could have avoided, but I didn't. Now I am not to drive because of the stupid crap I experienced? Frankly, I could care less as it's not a job that's "all that". The pay is lousy, and they own you. I can do better driving a box van, or even a taxi cab. And I shall do so. I can work two jobs as a cabbie and working for a small delivery outfit and do far better than I could as a Werner or Swift driver.

And yes, I do have things to offer. It does not take years on the road in a semi to have things to offer. I read. I understand what I read (this is evident in the fact I have excellent grades from grade school through college). What I do not offer is how to cheat. Think I don't know about logging line 1 to save on my 70? Think I don't know it's for the company, and not for me? There are regs in place for safety. I as a new driver had every right to be safe and run less miles than the veteran. Think I don't know the company wanted me running more for THEIR money? I was low man on the totem pole with the per mile pay. They saved money running a greenhorn twice as much as the veteran. This makes the highways far more dangerous. A greenhorn has no business running like he/she has ooodles of experience out there. I have driven over 30 years. What about the 23 year old greenhorn who has barely driven 5 years and has far less than 100,000 miles behind them? Call that safe?



If you really had a change of heart - thank you. I did wrongs to you in the past, and I told Sinister my wrong. He deleted what i asked. I stepped over the line, and I admitted it. We will probably continue to get on each other's nerves, but hey, it's the way of things I guess. Just to mention: It's not what I THINK is right, it's what I KNOW as per Federal guidelines. I had a right to log line 4 when I was not permitted to leave and do as I wish. If I am to remain in readiness, I am ON DUTY - PERIOD. As I said, I don't care what other drivers do. And I am sure there are drivers who'd be more than happy to take a lod I could not because I had no more hours. Incidentally, and to repeat yet again, I NEVER had to do a 34 because of my logging but ONE time. All other times, I had a 34 over a slow weekend anyway. And later after I had some more experience, MAYBE I would have logged line 1 to save hours - MAYBE. But that is MY decision as per FEDERAL REGS. And the company could have made money off me as I logged. well over 2,500 miles a week can easily be done. That's plenty for a newbie who does not know anything.



This has been off topic, but yes, I agree. If there is no damage to anything, don't file an accident report, and don't be forced to. As for trainers being the last word, that's a crock. Especially when a trainer can be in the position they are in after 6 months with a company like Swift (I have even heard of things as low as 3 months). Many of these people are nothing more than newbie greenhorns themselves.



As mentioned, I do have valid input to offer. Experience does not mean book smarts, and vice versa.

Accidents resulting in damage require a report. You are talking different circumstances here.



There was NO damage with my so-called accident.

Truck routes are not always maintained as they should be. The driver should be on the caution at ALL times, but unless a route is marked NO TRUCKS, then I don't see the driver TOTALLY at fault if something happens where local maintenance would have prevented it.



In Glenn's mind, I was wrong for following FEDERAL guidelines to stay safe, and the company was right for giving me a hard time about my logging. My D.M. even told me on the phone that he ran me because of how I logged. But they could not fire me for my by the book logging. They set me up in another way. I will maintain my view until the day I die as long as their is a FEDERAL book of regs that the company has no right to over-ride.



Like I mentioned above, it's a local thing to keep a truck route cleared. Otherwise, put up a sign forbidding trucks.



I am glad you came out of it, and are still driving. Just don't put any rub marks of any kind on any surface. Not with Steven Gregg around.
 
I know it sean,glenn the man has never ever made a mistake in the trucking industry.Why can't we all be perfect like him.

Don't know. But perfection is what it now takes to keep a job in this industry. Just be real careful out there.

On the perfection: If it's gonna be half of what Glenn says it's gonna be, then I think driver pay better go up to meet the demands. As if the schools are not expensive enough (it actually works out that CDL training per course hour is MORE expensive than most colleges). But then pay drivers what they are worth, and then commodities will be more expensive. This means everyone's pay must go up. It would be a continuing domino effect. What a concept though. Pay professional drivers what they are worth. That could eliminate this scraping for hours nonsense to make ends meet.

Sean don't u just love how glenn twist things around?????????He tells you what happened that day.In my case he was hiding between the trk and trl and took pictures, got his cam corder out the whole 9 yards and told me what really happened.What would we do without all the glenns in the world.Theres more glenns at companies then I can count.

That sure is the way he talked. Like he was there, and had a camcorder going. Too bad he was not there; otherwise, he'd have seen there was no damage to the landing gear that HE says was bent. He was not even there, how would he know what was bent? It was such a stupid thing to happen though. Other than my saying this was not a reportable accident as there was no damage to anything; I am not defending anything, and saying what I neglected was not stupid - it was. But at least I realized after just a few feet. And I was lucky that nothing happened to the landing gear or the asphalt top. And needless to say, I never forgot to raise that landing gear again. Stupid mistakes have a tendancy to really cement something into your head. I just don't believe I should have been forced to file an accident report. Like I said, I may as well have done it right, and really mangled that landing gear. While we are at it, I see no difference than if I had rolled the rig in a ditch or taken out a few four wheelers. So if this kind of anal-retention is allowed, then you are damn right I am going to be anal-retentive about regs.

If a couple of rub marks that probably disappeared after a couple of rain storms and/or enough traffic rolling over them was an "accident", then all of you who do a tight U-Turn with your trailer behind you better report an "accident" when you leave those tire marks on the ground (people do U-Turns all the time in truck stop lots and shipper/cons lots all the time). You better report an "accident" when backing your trailer into a tight alley dock when your tandem pivot point leaves tire marks - especially when you have to pivot up to 90 degrees. Let's be real here.


Giving Glenn a tiny bit of the benefit of the doubt in what he says is coming with CSA 2010 and the way things will tighten with the D.O.T./A.T.A., then I think companies better re-do their requirements in the time it takes to be a trainer. Like at least 5 years on the road with semis. Especially if the requirement is riding with one of these trainers for a year or two before getting your own truck and cut loose on your own.
 
I've always thought the same thing about trainers from day one,they should have at least 1 to 3 solid OTR exp.But trainers are in such demand I think it's 6 months.Trainers we have now teach students bad habits or don't really teach them everything they're spose to know.Sometimes i'm parked at a truckstop for the nite,I see a student/trainer trying to back and that trainer can't even back himself and he's out teaching the student.It's like oh lord now there's an accident waiting to happen.I agree getting a CDL is very exp and take yrs to pay it off.By the it's all said and done you're paying 10k for a cdl.Many come into this industry with one reason on their mind,MONEY.I tell them they had better rethink their options.Company drivers get paid below minimum wage and thats why many make up their own HOS.No way we could'nt live on $300.00 a week out here with bills as well living on the road.Look at the students have a set salary while in training.That has to be real hard on them,sad companies can get away with this.I think the CSA is after the trk drivers more then the companies.Companies get away with paying slave wages they get away with hiring students only to get that subsidy money,they make the drivers sit for hrs and days on end,no wonder so many out here run illegal.Can't FMCSA see any of this?????????????? Drivers don't want to run illegal they really don't but they don't have a choice.Many have families.Many can't just pack up and leave the industry,this is all they know and many know it quite well.Then many are too old to get a 9 to 5 job.Now about that landing gear,we've all made stupid mistakes in trucking,EXCEPT GLENN,hes a rare exception.Anyway you're only human you're bound to make mistakes,the main thing is you learn from them.Many out here learn to better themselves from a stupid mistake they made in the past and never forget that mistake.I hit that branch yrs ago,well to this day ive never forgot it I learned to drive on the inside lane in wall to wall traffic to avoid branches and an occasional mailbox that may be sticking out too far.You never stop learning in trucking.I agree filling out an accident report for that landing gear was stupid.Swift has it in their file and there it sits collecting dust.They'll never look at it.
Don't know. But perfection is what it now takes to keep a job in this industry. Just be real careful out there.

On the perfection: If it's gonna be half of what Glenn says it's gonna be, then I think driver pay better go up to meet the demands. As if the schools are not expensive enough (it actually works out that CDL training per course hour is MORE expensive than most colleges). But then pay drivers what they are worth, and then commodities will be more expensive. This means everyone's pay must go up. It would be a continuing domino effect. What a concept though. Pay professional drivers what they are worth. That could eliminate this scraping for hours nonsense to make ends meet.



That sure is the way he talked. Like he was there, and had a camcorder going. Too bad he was not there; otherwise, he'd have seen there was no damage to the landing gear that HE says was bent. He was not even there, how would he know what was bent? It was such a stupid thing to happen though. Other than my saying this was not a reportable accident as there was no damage to anything; I am not defending anything, and saying what I neglected was not stupid - it was. But at least I realized after just a few feet. And I was lucky that nothing happened to the landing gear or the asphalt top. And needless to say, I never forgot to raise that landing gear again. Stupid mistakes have a tendancy to really cement something into your head. I just don't believe I should have been forced to file an accident report. Like I said, I may as well have done it right, and really mangled that landing gear. While we are at it, I see no difference than if I had rolled the rig in a ditch or taken out a few four wheelers. So if this kind of anal-retention is allowed, then you are damn right I am going to be anal-retentive about regs.

If a couple of rub marks that probably disappeared after a couple of rain storms and/or enough traffic rolling over them was an "accident", then all of you who do a tight U-Turn with your trailer behind you better report an "accident" when you leave those tire marks on the ground. You better report an "accident" when backing your trailer into a tight dock when your pivot point leaves tire marks. Let's be real here.


Giving Glenn a tiny bit of the benefit of the doubt in what he says is coming with CSA 2010 and the way things will tighten with the D.O.T./A.T.A., then I think companies better re-do their requirements in the time it takes to be a trainer. Like at least 5 years on the road with semis. Especially if the requirement is riding with one of these trainers for a year or two before getting your own truck and cut loose on your own.
 
this is right.........there was no difference, because you still caused damage to the black top, that costs the warehouse thousands of dollars to have laid down.........

if a newbie DOES NOT DO AS TOLD by the trainer, the trainer that holds your trucking future in his/her hands, you will be reported to the company and most likely fired ASAP.....

the driver trainer always has the LAST WORD in whether or not a newbie makes it with the company. so to listen to this bit of advice from you, a NOBODY, would be detrimental to the newbies out there. and i DO MEAN to call you a nobody, no one with ANY surmountable driving experience whatsoever, except the 3 or 4 million miles you allegedly drove in your frigging 4 wheeler. you got fired from your 2 jobs in LESS THAN 6 months TOTAL TIME.........right out of school.........that speaks volumes of you and your lack of expertise.........
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it is NOT UP TO YOU, to worry about the veteran drivers, and their miles for the week

not even when CSA2010/2011 comes on board, will more drivers be needed.........it will be a leaner-meaner trucking industry soon enough............

What damage do you imagine you are talking about? Another thing I mentioned in the orginal thread is we had a company rep come out to look, and he said that it was nothing. Yet, I was still forced to file that report. I guess you are saying he was CMA to help me? Yeah, okay.


These driver-trainers who have the last word and a person's driving career in their hands better know what they are talking about themselves. Most of these 6 month wonders know far less than I do. And it's funny to think that IF I am ever allowed to drive again, I could well be hooked up with a trainer who has no more experience than I do if I drive for a carrier who only requires 6 months. I think I'll have to refuse that trainer. This just gets more and more comical. And IF it comes that it will be required that a new driver be with a trainer for a year or more, I think the requirements for trainers better be amped up to 5 years minimum OTR and absolutly no incidents of any kind whatsoever. This is how I see it becoming a leaner and meaner industry.


Well gee wiz. He agrees with me that drivers are not needed, nor will they be needed after CSA 2010 is fully in place. This being true, why do the major carriers who take students continue to advertise that they need drivers, and that there is a driver shortage? Should these misleading ads not be discontinued? But then that could hurt the money they get from the Federal subsidy programs for creating these false jobs, now won't it? They would not have as much of this to make up for the lost freight revenue, now would they? So we will continue to see the misleading ads that drivers are needed. And schools will continue to feed off this and continue to be in cahoots with these carriers. I'll bet he'll disagree with this though, and come up with some other valid reason for these ads that say drivers are needed in an industry that really had far too many veteran drivers (to say nothing of students). I can't wait to read this one.


ok, let's see what we have here.........

sean, not even a driver, but a failure of one, gives out information or advice, NOT to fill out an accident report...........and you patty agree with this........?? sean has NO competency or experience to give out advice to anyone.......


and to "agree"........?? with sean on NOT making out an accident report.........?? are you that crazy...........??

in most instances, when one admits fault right away, there isn't much in the way of "punishment".........but...........let the company find out you hid something, then BAAAM........they come down harder on you then you can ever imagine, up to and including firing you...........because now, the damage to the trailer WILL BE more extensive, especially from the time you drop that trailer, to the time someone else uses it, and he damages it, but keeps quiet, but his damage is far worse than yours............try and talk your way outta that one.........

For someone telling others I have no competency to say anything or give out advice, you sure have no room to talk.

You were wrong about my not being able to transfer my CDL. It's done.

You tell people to answer no on a sleep disorder questionaire, even when the answer is yes. Health problems are a hazard, and a safety issue on the highways. Did you not know this?

You change things I say, and omit words from my quotes. And you do this to appear righteous. You're like the kid who cheated on his tests in school. I NEVER did this. I have many times omitted parts of quotes when answering to spacifics to save text. But I NEVER changed the structure and meaning of anyone's sentance included in a quote by omitting or adding words to make it appear they said something they did not. People are supposed to trust integrity like this?!

You can't even quote me correctly. Numerous times on this thread (and others) you have said of me saying things I never said. I really believe you are either doing this on purpose, or you have a serious memory and reading comprehension problem. Either way, YOU think YOU are someone to take advice from?!

How about the little pictures a 5 year old may post which you have done twards me just because you don't like what I have to say. How about the sicko homo sexual innuendos directed twards me when you say I have been proven wrong and I got it in the ***?! This is the way a mature and experienced teacher acts? I'll never let it go, and I have been spreading it around. You have no clue just how rediculous, pathetic, sick and immature you have made yourself to look.

And I am the one who is without competence?

Maybe when it comes to time and miles in a semi, and getting around certain things in the industry (or refusing to), but it sure is not in the knowledge I have by simply reading a book.

patty was right when she said some posts ago about the two of us not behaving like mature middle aged men. But I will not let up. I will not back off what I believe in to be right (as per what the book says). I just don't need to do the sick posts you seem to need to shoot back.

Believe me, this is far more informative to those not in the industry than you think. And I speak of those entrusted to teach people coming in to this industry. I pray to God that you have misrepresented yourself.


I've always thought the same thing about trainers from day one,they should have at least 1 to 3 solid OTR exp.But trainers are in such demand I think it's 6 months.Trainers we have now teach students bad habits or don't really teach them everything they're spose to know.Sometimes i'm parked at a truckstop for the nite,I see a student/trainer trying to back and that trainer can't even back himself and he's out teaching the student.It's like oh lord now there's an accident waiting to happen.I agree getting a CDL is very exp and take yrs to pay it off.By the it's all said and done you're paying 10k for a cdl.Many come into this industry with one reason on their mind,MONEY.I tell them they had better rethink their options.Company drivers get paid below minimum wage and thats why many make up their own HOS.No way we could'nt live on $300.00 a week out here with bills as well living on the road.Look at the students have a set salary while in training.That has to be real hard on them,sad companies can get away with this.I think the CSA is after the trk drivers more then the companies.Companies get away with paying slave wages they get away with hiring students only to get that subsidy money,they make the drivers sit for hrs and days on end,no wonder so many out here run illegal.Can't FMCSA see any of this?????????????? Drivers don't want to run illegal they really don't but they don't have a choice.Many have families.Many can't just pack up and leave the industry,this is all they know and many know it quite well.Then many are too old to get a 9 to 5 job.Now about that landing gear,we've all made stupid mistakes in trucking,EXCEPT GLENN,hes a rare exception.Anyway you're only human you're bound to make mistakes,the main thing is you learn from them.Many out here learn to better themselves from a stupid mistake they made in the past and never forget that mistake.I hit that branch yrs ago,well to this day ive never forgot it I learned to drive on the inside lane in wall to wall traffic to avoid branches and an occasional mailbox that may be sticking out too far.You never stop learning in trucking.I agree filling out an accident report for that landing gear was stupid.Swift has it in their file and there it sits collecting dust.They'll never look at it.

I know Werner and Swift require only 6 months. I believe it to be the same with PAM. So it's probably the same with all the starter companies. I even once heard 3 months (yes - THREE months) OTR experience with a company I can't remember off hand being the minimum requirement. Scares the crap out of me. And all the more reason for me to be anal about regs. Yes, probably true that I'd end up telling my trainer to get out of the seat and let me back the friggin truck, or else we'll burn up all of our hours right there in the lot. Five years experience required - just like what is required for Wal Mart drivers - simple as that. Trainers for ANY company should have at least the same experience as ANY company out there requires of a driver.

As for CSA 2010 being after the drivers more so than the companies: I don't think that should be so. I think a lot of these companies should be slapped down if they require a driver to drive in any way other than what is in the D.O.T. book of regs. If a driver chooses to ignore regs that are easy to get away with ignoring, that's one thing. I don't have a problem with that. It's THEIR license, not MINE. I do have a major problem with a company telling me to do something I know I don't have to do as per regs written by an entity that is above the company. Drivers should be held responsible for their actions, well these companies should be too.
 
you must have stayed up all night doing that copy/pasting/quoting.............

thank you for calling me God, as i deserve to be called. compared to you, i am God...........you know not of what you speak. a person such as yourself to have been fired off (or given the opportunity) to quit (which amounts to being fired) in 6 months of being in the business, your thoughts hold no weight. to show pics of the internally bent landing gear would do no good, as one cannot see the internals of the landing gear. and the 'proposed" apprenticeship training program for newbies, as per the ATA and the DOT is "up to" 2 years.........and i do believe i did mention that in a WAY previous posting............when the DOT will actually put this into place is anyone's guess, just like the CSA2010 which has been pushed back more than once. you can do all the book reading you want, you stil FAILED at the job of being a truck driver, when hundreds of others have moved on in the industry, you sit and wallow in your own self pity of being an idiot and fight the system.
 
Ok,say a new law has been implemented,students must go with a trainer for a year before getting his own trk,you would'nt have a problem with that??????????????????????????If u can't learn everything u need to know in a couple months then u have no business driving trk.If you feel you're not ready after 2 months all u have to do is say something.They'll let u stay with a trainer till u do feel comfortable enough to be on your own.Alot of the accidents that has happened,students learned all that during training and school.Not paying attention is what causes many accidents.If does'nt matter if you're with a trainer 1 yr or 10 yrs,you're going to have an accident if you're not paying full attention to the road and your suroundings.But I do agree trainers should have alot of exp before training.Many laws will come into play with CSA.The things that should happen with CSA will not,like more pay,less sittingmore exp to be a trainer many things.It's all against the drivers.Many of the companies are for this CSA but would'nt be if the laws were as strick on them as they will be on the trk drivers.
Don't know. But perfection is what it now takes to keep a job in this industry. Just be real careful out there.

On the perfection: If it's gonna be half of what Glenn says it's gonna be, then I think driver pay better go up to meet the demands. As if the schools are not expensive enough (it actually works out that CDL training per course hour is MORE expensive than most colleges). But then pay drivers what they are worth, and then commodities will be more expensive. This means everyone's pay must go up. It would be a continuing domino effect. What a concept though. Pay professional drivers what they are worth. That could eliminate this scraping for hours nonsense to make ends meet.



That sure is the way he talked. Like he was there, and had a camcorder going. Too bad he was not there; otherwise, he'd have seen there was no damage to the landing gear that HE says was bent. He was not even there, how would he know what was bent? It was such a stupid thing to happen though. Other than my saying this was not a reportable accident as there was no damage to anything; I am not defending anything, and saying what I neglected was not stupid - it was. But at least I realized after just a few feet. And I was lucky that nothing happened to the landing gear or the asphalt top. And needless to say, I never forgot to raise that landing gear again. Stupid mistakes have a tendancy to really cement something into your head. I just don't believe I should have been forced to file an accident report. Like I said, I may as well have done it right, and really mangled that landing gear. While we are at it, I see no difference than if I had rolled the rig in a ditch or taken out a few four wheelers. So if this kind of anal-retention is allowed, then you are damn right I am going to be anal-retentive about regs.

If a couple of rub marks that probably disappeared after a couple of rain storms and/or enough traffic rolling over them was an "accident", then all of you who do a tight U-Turn with your trailer behind you better report an "accident" when you leave those tire marks on the ground (people do U-Turns all the time in truck stop lots and shipper/cons lots all the time). You better report an "accident" when backing your trailer into a tight alley dock when your tandem pivot point leaves tire marks - especially when you have to pivot up to 90 degrees. Let's be real here.


Giving Glenn a tiny bit of the benefit of the doubt in what he says is coming with CSA 2010 and the way things will tighten with the D.O.T./A.T.A., then I think companies better re-do their requirements in the time it takes to be a trainer. Like at least 5 years on the road with semis. Especially if the requirement is riding with one of these trainers for a year or two before getting your own truck and cut loose on your own.
 

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