Pros and Cons of Dash Cams

Sinister

pari animositate
Oh boy.
Here we go again.

Why exactly do you think a dash cam is a good idea?
 
If I ever got one it would be a Go-Pro Hero 3 or ... probably 4 by then.

I doubt I'd use it in the truck though. I'm thinking more along the lines of:

 
Their word, my word and video.

I win.

Provided you yourself are absolutely squeaky clean and not at fault in ANY way. And again, what happens in the event of a fatality - even one thats not your fault? They're still going to subpoena everything and they will find something, and that may just be enough.

There are a whole new batch of ambulance chasing scumbag lawyers who specialize in truck wrecks. They are not your friend.

I don't think you'll win in a really bad situation. There's probably ten videos on youtube right now where I can find fault in exactly the same type of thinking and maybe even reverse the blame and I'm NOT a lawyer.

If these things were that great an idea, wouldn't the megafleets have adopted them by now?

We've bitched our entire lives - I have anyway, I understand you're fairly new to the industry - about keeping government out of our cabs, and yet here you're inviting it in. Even beyond your elogs.

As polite as I can possibly say it - you're part of the problem. You're buying into The Party. You are 1984.

Here's some more food for thought - are you fully incorporated, or an LLC? Because a good ambulance chaser can rip through an LLC like a sawtooth shark in a school of herring.
 
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In the event of a fatality or serious injury in which you're not at fault, the only way to protect yourself would be to copy just the relevant clip to another drive & then completely destroy the memory card from the camera that has your previous 8 hours or whatever in it.

They'll watch everything from the whole day & find something. They'll have "experts" look at the video track timing & compare it to the dashed lines on the pavement & figure out your speed. If you were speeding by 1 mph for more than a few seconds, they'll say that if you hadn't been speeding you'd have been 100 feet further behind at the time of the accident & it either wouldn't have occurred or the results might've been different. All they have to do is convince a jury full of idiots with scientific mumbo-jumbo & you're toast.

That's why I won't run a dash cam. If someone causes an injury accident, even if I'm not injured, the last thing that'll be on my mind will be the dash cam, and I doubt I'd even have time to transfer the video clip to another drive & destroy the original before the cops confiscate it.
 
If I ever got one it would be a Go-Pro Hero 3 or ... probably 4 by then.

I doubt I'd use it in the truck though. I'm thinking more along the lines of:



Bird-brain!
:eek:





:D

My dad had a pilots license.
He bought an old Army trainer after WW II.
I have a single pic of that plane with him squatting under the wing around here somewhere.

I've had 8 or 10 people over the years tell me that he flew under the Lexington bridge in it.

upload_2014-4-19_1-36-7.jpeg

I asked him about it several times and he always denied it...
except the last time...
and he didn't admit it then. :D
He only said,
"They would yank my license for a stunt like that. The only thing dumber than doing it would be admitting it."
:cautious:

I never even flew with him piloting...
He'd always get an old timer called Doc to take us up in a 4 seat Cessna.
But he sweated that pilots license as much as he ever sweated anything.
When the time for an FAA physical drew near he would start watching what he ate, walking up n down the road,
refrain from drinking, etc.
 
Between the box on the truck, your cell phone, your laptop, your Garmin, they will find something.

It's just not a good idea.
 
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Yeh. And that was a looong time ago. Now theres that much more technology that can totally screw you.

Even before that...
Clyde Clifford tried to warn people.

KAAY, Little Rock...
WLS, Chigago...
Beaker Street...
on the AM band...
ever hear'd of that??
:D

"Don't forget to say hello to the third man on the two party line."
;)


 
@Sinister if your hypothesis is correct every driver involved in a fatal would be imprisoned.

@Tim and @Fageol are 2 that I know of who have been down this road. They both survived and live to drive another day.

I wonder if either of them could hypothetically determine if video could have helped or hurt?

@Duck pointed out the obvious.... The only portions any lawyer would ever view would be the part that assists me. As far as timing and such....nah, way too many ways to disturb the only copy.

You disdain technology and I have no issue with that. I support your right to choose. I choose to protect myself.

Our driving records can and will be used against and for us, I'm just adding 10,000 words X 29.9 frames per second to make MY case.

Larger fleets have begun the use of 2 way cameras so you're wrong on that. They and I have every right to install and require the use. You as an employee have every right to seek employment elsewhere.
 
@Sinister if your hypothesis is correct every driver involved in a fatal would be imprisoned.

@Tim and @Fageol are 2 that I know of who have been down this road. They both survived and live to drive another day.

I wonder if either of them could hypothetically determine if video could have helped or hurt?

@Duck pointed out the obvious.... The only portions any lawyer would ever view would be the part that assists me. As far as timing and such....nah, way too many ways to disturb the only copy.

You disdain technology and I have no issue with that. I support your right to choose. I choose to protect myself.

Our driving records can and will be used against and for us, I'm just adding 10,000 words X 29.9 frames per second to make MY case.

Larger fleets have begun the use of 2 way cameras so you're wrong on that. They and I have every right to install and require the use. You as an employee have every right to seek employment elsewhere.

I'm not driving right now. Too much stuff to do around the houses. However when I go back to work, it will probably be driving because after driving the last seven years I'm not sure I could back to city managing or commercial lending. And if I do go back to driving, I'll probably get some kind of a dash cam. Do you know if they're legal in Canada? The reason that I ask is that although I wasn't looking for a job, I was offered a job a few days ago running the "highway" (up this way that means the Alaska Highway). But I'm not sure if I can run down to America unless I figure out how to care for the wife. BTW, "America" is an Alaskan term for the Lower 48 states). Maybe @rigjockey knows about dash cams in Canada.

The fatal accident in which I was involved was obviously the other guys fault. I laid down a fair amount of rubber in my lane. The accident happened within a couple of hundred yards from the end of a bridge that's the best part of a mile long that crosses the Susitna river and an adjacent slough. It's one of the few moose-free places on the Parks Highway (between Anchorage and Fairbanks) so I was sikkling (an old term used by line and local drivers in the 1960s, probably derived from cycling) along at 71 mph per the last reading of the ECM -- I'm sure I was going much slower when the guy and I met in my lane -- there was a 10' bank that I was unwilling to drive down and I'm not sure I would have avoided him in any case. I don't know the sampling interval of 6NZ C15 ECMs. But I'm guessing that I could have calculated the speed from dash cam information. The speed limit for most of the Parks Highway is 65 for cars or trucks but as usual, we run a tad faster. Because my speed was unobserved, I doubt that the troopers could have charged me with speeding.

Recall that government speed cameras are not held in high regard in Alaska. About 10 years ago the powers that be (including my professional Democrat neighbor who was then on the Anchorage city assembly and now is U.S. Senator Mark Begich) hired some lashup out of Arizona to put speed cameras around Anchorage school zones. A couple of the camera operators were smacked around and a couple of the camera vehicles were shot. Within a few months, the powers that be rethought their position and paid the Arizona lashup to go home -- our property tax dollars (about $17/1000) at work.

All this is to say, that my dashboard camera would have been nice but superfluous in proving fault in the fatal crash in which I was involved. It could have been helpful in determining my speed at impact. The survivability of late model big Toyota pickup isn't great against a 3-axle 375 pulling two 45' MT 45 foot flats (60K lbs. light, 25K, 15K, 5K, 15K, tractor, lead flat, 2-axle dolly, tail flat). So determining my speed at impact would have been an interesting academic exercise as opposed to proving anything in a legal or administrative forum.
 
I'm not driving right now. Too much stuff to do around the houses. However when I go back to work, it will probably be driving because after driving the last seven years I'm not sure I could back to city managing or commercial lending. And if I do go back to driving, I'll probably get some kind of a dash cam. Do you know if they're legal in Canada? The reason that I ask is that although I wasn't looking for a job, I was offered a job a few days ago running the "highway" (up this way that means the Alaska Highway). But I'm not sure if I can run down to America unless I figure out how to care for the wife. BTW, "America" is an Alaskan term for the Lower 48 states). Maybe @rigjockey knows about dash cams in Canada.

The fatal accident in which I was involved was obviously the other guys fault. I laid down a fair amount of rubber in my lane. The accident happened within a couple of hundred yards from the end of a bridge that's the best part of a mile long that crosses the Susitna river and an adjacent slough. It's one of the few moose-free places on the Parks Highway (between Anchorage and Fairbanks) so I was sikkling (an old term used by line and local drivers in the 1960s, probably derived from cycling) along at 71 mph per the last reading of the ECM -- I'm sure I was going much slower when the guy and I met in my lane -- there was a 10' bank that I was unwilling to drive down and I'm not sure I would have avoided him in any case. I don't know the sampling interval of 6NZ C15 ECMs. But I'm guessing that I could have calculated the speed from dash cam information. The speed limit for most of the Parks Highway is 65 for cars or trucks but as usual, we run a tad faster. Because my speed was unobserved, I doubt that the troopers could have charged me with speeding.

Recall that government speed cameras are not held in high regard in Alaska. About 10 years ago the powers that be (including my professional Democrat neighbor who was then on the Anchorage city assembly and now is U.S. Senator Mark Begich) hired some lashup out of Arizona to put speed cameras around Anchorage school zones. A couple of the camera operators were smacked around and a couple of the camera vehicles were shot. Within a few months, the powers that be rethought their position and paid the Arizona lashup to go home -- our property tax dollars (about $17/1000) at work.

All this is to say, that my dashboard camera would have been nice but superfluous in proving fault in the fatal crash in which I was involved. It could have been helpful in determining my speed at impact. The survivability of late model big Toyota pickup isn't great against a 3-axle 375 pulling two 45' MT 45 foot flats (60K lbs. light, 25K, 15K, 5K, 15K, tractor, lead flat, 2-axle dolly, tail flat). So determining my speed at impact would have been an interesting academic exercise as opposed to proving anything in a legal or administrative forum.
Oh ya, There is no problem at all with having a dash cam in Canada.
 
Thank you, hey? (Remember us Youpers or UPers) have the right to use the "hey" suffix to sentences.)
We usually say EH! I love driving the U.P. Over the big Mac bridge and over to Marquette. The have truck parking at the rest areas right along the lake shore. I always wanted to park there for the night a take a dip^. I was never there during the right time of year. Swimming season is pretty short in the U.P.
 
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@Sinister if your hypothesis is correct every driver involved in a fatal would be imprisoned.
No it's the civil litigation lawyers we gotta worry about. The criminal justice system at least is designed so the burden of proof is on the accuser & they have to prove their case beyond a shadow of doubt & it requires a unanimous agreement by the jury.

The civil litigation system however, is more like a Salem Witch trial. While the burden of proof still lies with the accuser, they don't need "beyond a shadow of a doubt". All they have to do is confuse the jury with fancy words & technical mumbo-jumbo & they can take everything you own & garnish your wages forever, or at least until you fake your own death. And faking your own death is becoming more & more difficult now that the government has been doing everything they can to create fingerprint, DNA and photo databases of everyone in the entire world (not just US citizens).

Duck pointed out the obvious.... The only portions any lawyer would ever view would be the part that assists me.
No. If you give YOUR lawyer the memory card from the camera, there's a pre-trial hearing in which they decide which evidence is admissible. A judge may rule that it's all or nothing. The entire data card, which may have stuff from up to 8 hours prior to the crash. When big bucks are involved, like with somebody who carries a million dollar's liability coverage that's making the ambulance chaser drool, they're going to want to find ANYTHING they can use against you. If you drift onto the white line for a second 45 minutes before the crash, they'll say you're showing evidence of "distracted driving" or "fatigue" and should have parked it. Even if the actual crash was caused 100% by the other party, it will then become your fault (in the eyes of a jury full of idiots who watch too much Oprah) because you should've parked & went to sleep before the crash.

As far as timing and such....nah, way too many ways to disturb the only copy.

There is a field called "computer forensics". I've actually been considering going to college to learn this. Not so I can help ambulance chasers ruin innocent people's lives, but so I can work with the FBI to track down sexual predators who lure children out into vulnerable places by pretending to be someone their age. I know a guy who does that. In addition to the computer geek stuff, he's also a cop so he gets to participate in the sting operations that catch them physically too.

Anyway, with computer forensics, ... let's just put it this way. I have ZERO education in this field. Yet just from stuff I've learned on my own, I bet I can already tell if a video has been edited. Somebody would have to be pretty damn good to fool me, and in order to fool an actual computer forensics expert, .. I bet Hollywood can't even do that. But even if the authenticity of the video clip isn't called into question, it's still a "computer forensics" task, a very simple one actually that even I can do, to simply put the video in an editor program that allows you to play it slowly, frame by frame, with measuring marks on the screen to measure the passage of the dashed lines on the pavement.

The dashed lines are 10 feet long and they're 30 feet apart. Once the experts have established that the video hasn't been slowed down, (which is easy to do and I'll explain that in a minute) all you have to do to determine the speed you're going in the video is to open it up in a program like Adobe ImageReady and put horizontal measuring lines overlaying the screen, and count how many video frames it takes for the beginning of one ten-foot line to pass those measuring lines, to the beginning of the next one which is 40 feet of travel. For more accuracy you can go with ten lines which would be 400 feet. Then you look at either the frame delay which is the amount of milliseconds each frame is displayed, or just count the frames & divide by the camera's frame rate. (notice I said the camera's frame rate, not the video's frame rate. More on that in a minute) Then all you need is some simple third grade math to determine your speed, accurate to within a tenth of a MPH.

As far as telling if the video speed has been altered.

The make & model of the camera can be subpoenaed. Sometimes it's embedded in the video file and isn't hard to find. Or they can subpoena the camera itself. The frame rate of the camera is noted. You mentioned 29.9 frames per second. It's actually 29.97. There are no cameras that record at 29.90 fps but it can be achieved with video editing software. If the frame rate is not the same as what the camera records at, it's been slowed down or sped up.

I can check a video's frame rate two ways. I can simply use the "video inspector" function in Apple Quicktime Pro or if it's an AVI or MOV format I can open it in ImageReady and look at the individual frame delay times. If the frame delay times are anything other than 0.2997 seconds, it's been sped up or slowed down.

That's all just stuff I had to figure out on my own when I was trying to synchronize Skateboard's cartoon mouth with the words spoken by the Smurfs in that cartoon in those couple of scenes. So imagine what somebody who's actually gone to college for this stuff would be able to do to verify the authenticity of the video.

There's the scenes with his truck driving down the road. I paid no attention the the length of the lines, the spacing between them, or the rate they move when I made the cartoon, but now I'm kind of curious about it. I only animated those lines once & re-used it on a loop for those scenes so if I wanted to I could open the original clip & figure out his road speed in those clips, even though it's a freakin' cartoon.

In addition to examining the frame rate, every video file has other aspects that can be looked at such as the codec used to compress & write the digital video file, or the audio track. If the camera itself is subpoenaed, a video can be recorded with it, and it's codec & data rates can be compared to the crash scene clip to see if they're the same.


I have the GoPro. Had it for a few years now and it's the cats meow. Mine records for 14 hours then writes over the old video in a continuous loop. It's also I think it's like 170 degrees so it sees both sides of the truck not just straight ahead.
Aint no way that's 170 degrees. You'd need a fisheye lens or multiple video feeds in order to capture 170 degrees of view. I'm guessing that's roughly 90 degrees, give or take.

Thank you, hey? (Remember us Youpers or UPers) have the right to use the "hey" suffix to sentences.)
People in Fargo who aren't transplants to the area have a little bit of Canadian in their accent. They sound normal except they put slightly more emphasis than normal on the long "O" when they say words like "load" or "road". They don't do the "eh" thing though.
 
We usually say EH! I love driving the U.P. Over the big Mac bridge and over to Marquette. The have truck parking at the rest areas right along the lake shore. I always wanted to park there for the night a take a dip^. I was never there during the right time of year. Swimming season is pretty short in the U.P.
I'll go with "Ey". Guess it depends on use and context (sorry Mr. Wittgenstein for debasing your thoughts to this extent). From what I heard of that sentence suffix, the "H" that I used should have been inserted between the "e" and the "y". That would make the "H" more like a breathing mark in the words used in Classical Greek (which I didn't like as much as Latin or German -- getting kicked out of that college spared me learning more about Classical Greek -- sorry Homer).
 

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